Soapbox - Graphics vs Gameplay

[IRSWalker]

Another good example of Graphics vs Gameplay is Sudden Strike. Again, the idea was to cater to a wider range of gaming hardware, so they used a 2D graphics engine, optimised it, then concentrated on the gameplay and the playtesting/balancing. Result: an awesome game that can run on a low-spec machine, yet will stay on your hard drive a lot longer than the "pretty boy" software.

Smiley

[Cmdr Nova]

quote:

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Originally posted by vogelap:

My fantasy for BCM is a combination of it's OUTSTANDING gameplay (and an added 'story mode' with missions for single player) with the graphical richness of IW2 -- everything that IW2 offers -- from the pre-rendered movies to the in-engine cutscenes. This, in my opinion, would add the glitz to the gameplay that would propel BCM to the top of the heap.

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Derek once said to me that he'd never do a story based BC game. Why? To keep it's open-endedness that makes it a BC game.

I agree with Derek also, in saying that cutscenes are only mainly based towards story-driven games.

(But I do have an ingenious plan to create campaigns that could be story-based, using passwords you recieve ingame, to get into a page on a website, for a briefing and whatnot. Like one of those cheesy new BradyGames strategy guides for FF9, Chrono Cross, and other new RPGs where they extend the guide online, using keycodes.)

Back on topic, I think it all boils down to the imagination and abilities of the player to understand the game. If you've got no imagination what-so-ever, then I'm thinking a complex, open-ended game like BCM would probably not be your type.

The average BC gamer is an educated one. I've already seen this in effect on the forums. Take the RP forums for example. Such cool and incredible epic stories probably wouldn't be possible with someone who only played closed environment games. In BC, we make our own stories. That's what makes this game, in my opinion, cool.

Nova, over and out.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Cmdr Nova ]

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mindglow:

I think he actually has a point, while most of the things that go on in the BCM universe can be tracked by floating points, there is alot of room for more impressive graphics. The game IS huge, and very impressive the way it juggles all that data, I'm not surprised that it crashes every 15 minutes.

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Not sure which game crashes every 15 mins. But its certainly not BCM.

Besides, a game being developed by an indie shouldn't be judged by any different standards. A game is a game. If you want to compete with the big boys, you have to do just that: compete. Some bring advanced graphics and virtually zero gameplay, while others focus on gameplay and with graphics that get the job done.

IMO (and from the countless emails I've received today), the graphics in BCM get the job done and they do NOT detract from the gameplay. One day, the graphics will peak at or close to the level of gameplay, then it won't matter. This game went into development almost two years ago, I'd be a complete idiot to keep moving the graphics goal post just because a bunch of sissies with the attention span of a gnat, want to flex their GF3.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[Guest]

When it comes to graphics vs. gameplay, I would of course, like to have both. But if I have to choose, I definitely take gameplay over graphics.

I remember when BC3k v 2.0x came out. Great gameplay with decent, but dated graphics (I had a particular peeve with the white line at the horizon separating the sky from the ground). Other games had better graphics, but it was BC3k that stayed on my hard drive (until BCM came out).

BCM has superb gameplay with good graphics. Again the graphics are not quite up to shallower games (Aquanox, Rogue Squadron II, or I-War II), but the gameplay is there to more than make up for it.

Personally, I find BCM's graphics to be very satisfying and love to gawk at them. The texturing on the ships is some of the best ever. The planets look great from space, and the surface terrain graphics are much improved over BC3k. Each planet has a distinct and realistic feel with great weather effects.

Sure, the terrain graphics are not as good as FS 2002 where every tree in each forest is rendered, nor are the space graphics as pretty as Independence War II. However, the overall package of gameplay more than makes up for any graphics deficiencies. I have to say also that I don't find BCM nearly as far behind in the graphics department as BC3k v2.0x was when it came out.

Bottom line: One year from now, BCM will still be on my hard drive, but those other games probably won't be.

[jpprod]

I think he actually has a point, while most of the things that go on in the BCM universe can be tracked by floating points, there is alot of room for more impressive graphics.

In the end, complexity of game world processing is all about scale.

It is not possible to handle spaceship universal positioning with simple x/y/z coordinates unless there are very restricted mission zones or the universe is in reality, really small. Even double-precision floating point math wouldn't be sufficient. For example, in order to achieve seamless universal processing, my game engine has two sets of coordinates to do the positioning, local (3x 64bit float) and universal (3x 64bit int) ones. As far as I know, Battlecruiser Millennium uses zoning and some sort of strategy to hide the zone boudaries. To make the game world run, this complex positioning has to be hidden from the AI by abstraction.

And that's just one of the hard problems that need to be solved in freeform space sims. Among others is the inadequecy of traditional z-buffering in presenting objects of interplanetary scale. Aforementioned is one area which BCM handles really admirably. Free form game world that is persistent across the entire duration of the game also represents many non-trivial problems, like state restoration compatibility in case of an upgrade patch.

In conclusion, I dare to claim that in a programming a perspective, freeform space sim is at least as complex as a flight sim. In flight sims

1) Aforementioned Z-issue does not exist. You can fog + clip the scenery at a certain distance.

2) Complex zoning or positioning scheme is not required, since distances are not that long.

3) With the (possible) exception of Falcon 4, game world is not 100% persistent. It's much easier to create a savegame format which is cross-version compatible.

4) Atmospheric effects are much, much easier to do. In a flight sim, standard fog looks fine and impressive clouds can be created with just a couple of particles. In a space sim, fog and cloud effects (ie. nebulas) would require an advanced particle system with highly scalable LOD + true volumetric fog.

Feel free to disagree, of course

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Jukka T. Paajanen ]

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jukka T. Paajanen:

[QB Free form game world that is persistent across the entire duration of the game also represents many non-trivial problems, like state restoration compatibility in case of an upgrade patch.

[/QB]

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...which usually leads to invalidated saved games.

quote:

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Feel free to disagree, of course

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Not I. I'm in 100% agreement with you.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[Menchise]

Apparently, even the 'big boys' at DA agree with you, SC.

This is from an archived TLR interview with the Freelancer team:

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TLR: Will FL support DirectX 8 technologies, or are you mainly focused on DirectX 7?

A: It is a bit late and not necessarily wise to port the game from DX7 to DX8. The interface is quite different, and we want to focus on getting this game done and out to the players, instead of adding new technology, which might bring us another several months delay, and will only improve the experience for a few. But the game works with most of the advanced functions in DX7, including "Transformation and Lightning".

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BTW, I saw the comments TLR made about the soapbox. Nobody has replied to your response yet.

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

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Originally posted by Menchise:

BTW, I saw the comments TLR made about the soapbox. Nobody has replied to your response yet.

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They must still be taking their nap. Give it time, it'll be a bloodbath soon.

As I was telling the guys in our internal mailing list...

the part I like the most, is when I post on forums where they actually ban people (e.g. VE). So, I post some attention getting diatribe. It usually totally puts the detractors at wits end, tits up.

....resulting in mass acts of Net Hari Kari (where you post something you know

is going to get you banned or burned to a crisp - but you post it anyway). *g*

And before you know it, you have an epidemic of people crying foul!

Gotta luv it.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[Wody]

Hi,

One word: Zork. The text-descriptions are graphically beautiful, and a wonderful gameplay.

Greetings,

Wouter Dijkslag

[Soback]

Hi, here's an e-mail I send to SC. I am going to copy and post so as not to loose any of the original flavor.

"Definitely gameplay. I have said it before in the forums and will say it again. I played Iwar2 and I played Battlecruiser3000 AD V2.0 (when BCM wasn't out yet) and Iwar2 was gone from my system after about 4 weeks while BC3K v2.0 was still there after years and years. So when the next space "sim" comes out I will probably get it and play it too, but when I do my monthly uninstalls and clean ups, I can guarantee you that those space "sims" will be gone and BCM will still be there. So in the end gameplay is the deciding factor and beats graphics no matter how pretty they might be, if you don't believe me just see my example of BC3K v2.0 and Iwar2."

[Fendi]

quote:

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Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

the part I like the most, is when I post on forums where they actually ban people (e.g. VE). So, I post some attention getting diatribe. It usually totally puts the detractors at wits end, tits up.

....resulting in mass acts of Net Hari Kari (where you post something you know

is going to get you banned or burned to a crisp - but you post it anyway). *g*

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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That is just pure evil.

So far you got rid of Fabio and Wilf, I'm just waiting for the Shirley alter ego to be banned. But you have to admit, the Wilf's alter ego version was the most annoying of the "Fabio forum accounts".

Anyway I'd rather have a game with okay graphics (bcm, ofp) that can handle large battles with good AI rather than a game that is purely eye candy that can only handle a couple of ships at a time before the computer slows down to a halt who's AI's only purpose in life is to contantly ram you. What made it worse was the fact that I waited for that game for ages. Damn movie franchise game (but you know who you are)......

BCM on the other hand has not dissapointed me one bit. It's rather well balanced in terms of graphics and gameplay. My only dissapointment with the game is the Warmonger class that can't cloak. Okay I'll compromise, just let the assassins have cloaking abilities and everybody will be happy.

*leaves very quitely*

[Thermidor]

Actually I think the graphics are a little too good. Any chance BCM can go full text mode? It would be a lot easier to code BCM Online if it was a Sci-Fi MUD

[CommanderJohnson]

If I want eye candy (graphics), i'll look at pictures of naked women. Or i'll look at naked women. If I want to play a good computer game, i'll play BCM. Any objections? Case closed...

[CommanderJohnson]

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If you are talking about the cut-scenes, yes, I hate them too. Every staunch BC member knows my stance on doing cut-scenes in my game. Never gonna do them. Ever.

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You had a cool opening cutscene for the original BC3K.

[Urza]

Gameplay wins, no questions asked. Graphics are just icing on the cake. Which brings us to the many games that are all icing and no cake.

[Mitchell]

"Jingle-bells, gameplay rules, Gammulans on the run;

Oh what fun! It is to fly, my brand new Megaron!

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

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Originally posted by Captain Dread:

You had a cool opening cutscene for the original BC3K.

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intro != cutscene

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mitchell:

"Jingle-bells, gameplay rules, Gammulans on the run;

Oh what fun! It is to fly, my brand new Megaron!

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ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

[Menchise]

LOL

[Saint19]

I'd have to cast my vote for gameplay over gfx. I like gfx as much as the next guy. But the only things that ever keep me coming back is gameplay...ala Flanker1.5, and the STEEL BEASTS demo.

19

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mitchell:

"Jingle-bells, gameplay rules, Gammulans on the run;

Oh what fun! It is to fly, my brand new Megaron!

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LOL!!! Damn that was good.

[Lionheart]

SC May I suggest that anyone who would be intrigued by BCM comes for the experience [the play]. I love good graphics , and BCM isn't bad, but "the plays the thing" to borrow and twist the famous Bard's words. This designer has demonstrated [at least!]that we who aspire to explore the universe can expect even more in the future. Graphic splendor will arrive but in the meantime watch out the rear view ,[F4]for a new commander, as earth disappears as you "hyper" to some far off place from GALCOM. Not too shabby!

I further boldy suggest two points. [dare I?]

The designer has already said improved graphics are comming in an expansion ...so... "what's your boggle?" [Demolition Man the movie]

Second... I'll just bet those us who play BCM have our own favorite views. Please tell me yours... can the view of leaving earth on a mission be equaled? Hey is it possible we have good graphics and will get great ones someday?

[Supreme Cmdr]

And the debate continues

[Gordon]

IMO gameplay will always be more important than graphics. The eye candy that some games have is not enough to keep my interest in the long run. The first time I play a game that has great graphics I will play the intro and enjoy the visuals but I soon become bored of it and usually toggle it off or continue to hit Esc to get to the actual game, same holds true for in game graphics and movie cut scenes. Games like the Battle Cruiser series will always hold my interest as I like to be continually challenged. Most games will wind up shelved after I complete it or become bored of its repetitive nature. I have been waiting quite a long time for a game like BCM and I can not see myself shelving it for a long time. I am not saying that BCM's graphics are subpar, as they are not, but it is obvious that more effort was placed into gameplay and rightly so. Graphics are a fad right now due to the advances made in the computer industry, and I forsee this fad to go the way of others.

[Menchise]