Something that Annoys Me - Big Time

[Kush]

A very close friend of mine has cancer and was treated right away.

[Guest]

Kush,

I have to disagree with you again, the fact is, 75% of people that do not have health care in the US, choose not to have health care. If they have to go into an emergency room in order to get care and they do not have coverage, they SHOULD be responsible for that charge. It's called personal responsibility, with rights come responsibility, something that most people seem to forget. Because every time you give up a responsibility to the government, you give up more rights as well.

2nd, a woman with children, who is on welfare, should be able to get affordable child care, so true, but as soon as the government gets involved, it will happen again, childcare charges will go out of sight. It's a fact, as soon as the government gets involved in something it either destroys it, or has to take it over in order to save it. Because the cost gets driven up, due to the government intervention.

And as far as your health care being underfunded, what are your taxes now, ready for them to go up again? Because they will, there is no such thing as a free lunch, and boy are you gonna pay!!!

And last but not least, a citizen who is not allowed by his government to own firearms, is no longer a free citizen, he is a subject.

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CMDR Jaguar

GCV Armageddon, Starpath (Mars)

Prime Fleet, Delta Wing

ICQ# 24007233

External Beta Tester

Battlecruiser Millenium

[Kush]

BTW I'm very sorry to hear about your grandmother's boyfriend.

[This message has been edited by Kush (edited 03-19-2001).]

[Guest]

I'm glad to see that Kush understands that this is nothing personal against him, just a difference of opinion.

Thank you about my grandmothers boyfriend, it was very upsetting to my family, we even offered to pay for out of our pockets, down here in the states, but since he was in the system, he couldn't get out. It was very aggravating.

I hate your system and I hate any socialized government run system, be it Social Security, welfare, medicare, add nauseum. The governments job is to protect us from those that would harm us, (Physical force, or fraud) not from a healthcare system that works well and with whom the market should regulate. I am tired of all the socialist schemes that governments try for the good of the people, I think its for the power over those same peoples lives not for any good that it would do them.

The government believes that you are too stupid to do it yourself, the problem is they are stupider then those they are trying to protect.

Bottom line, don't protect me from myself, protect me from others who would try to take away my rights. That's the job of government, End of story. and the fact is, as long as I am armed, I can do a better job of that as well.

The military should be the BIGGEST part of the federal budget, not one of the smallest.

Because that is one thing that they do well and that the constitution definitively says is their job.

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CMDR Jaguar

GCV Armageddon, Starpath (Mars)

Prime Fleet, Delta Wing

ICQ# 24007233

External Beta Tester

Battlecruiser Millenium

[This message has been edited by Jaguar (edited 03-19-2001).]

[Guest]

"And last but not least, a citizen who is not allowed by his government to own firearms, is no longer a free citizen, he is a subject"

IMO, they just become armed citizens and a danger to their fellow citizens.

Im all for a complete gun ban, and since its as imposible as a complete drug ban I can only keep up hope.

Also, health care and welfare are totally different things.

[Guest]

And I have to disagree with you now Tac, geez, never thought that would happen. Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns.

You are correct, a gun ban would never work, and if you want to take away my 2nd amendment rights, are you willing to give up your 1st amendment rights, You can't have one without the other. How will you enforce your 1st amendment without the 2nd amendment, or the rest of them for that matter. That is why no one should be for a gun ban, because then you are also for a constitution ban. Think about it, because it's true.

Also, I have a concealed weapons permit, I am armed at all times, and I have NEVER been a threat to my fellow citizens, I am a threat to criminals, not my fellow law abiding citizens. So I am offended by that statement.

Look at your own state of Florida, Concealed weapons permit passed, carjackings all but went away, except at the airport, because people leaving the airport you can be sure don't have a gun to shoot you with when you steal their car with them in the drivers seat.

As soon as you are unarmed, expect to have the rest of your rights yanked from you, that's what will happen, look at what happened in Germany in the 1930's. Look at what's happening in Canada and Australia, the police can come into your house without a search warrant if they feel that you MAY have a gun. That's awfully broad, don't you think? That is the history of gun control.

History repeats itself because no one listened the first time.

Also health care and welfare are 2 different things, except for the fact that the government wants to control both, welfare was a failure, any way that you look at it, and if they try and take over health care it will fail as well. They are already screwing it up with some of their programs.

The government is not allowed constitutionally to do most of the things they are doing now, and those are the things that they are screwing up so bad.

This is called SOCIALISM, it does not work, see the Soviet Union!!

But as long as the American people are kept in the dark as far as what the constitution says, then what it says doesn't matter. My problem is, I know what it says and believe that that is the way it should be. If only a majority of the American people would care enough to read and study that great document, they would be as angry as I am.

[This message has been edited by Jaguar (edited 03-19-2001).]

[aramike]

[Kush]

Well this has been a very interesting thread!

One of the things I really enjoyed about it is that it has made me realize how much I really appreciate my country and the way we do things here.

I don't really know much about living in America, but I do know that it is very different from living here. One of the differences is that here in Canada we have what are called equalization payments. It's a payment all the wealthy provinces make to the federal government that is then equally distributed to the provinces that are not as wealthy. It could be considered analogous to a kind of welfare program if you will, but on a national level. These payments usually end up going to some of the eastern Canadian provinces to help pay for anything from schools to roads to healthcare, whatever is needed.

Some of the eastern provinces were hit very hard when the cod stocks disappeared. Men and women who had spent their lives in the fishing industry (and whose parents and grandparents as well) suddenly found themselves out of work because thanks to over fishing from European and yes American fishermen, the cod stocks vanished. They may never ever come back to their former levels. Hard working men and women found themselves out of work and because of a lack of diversification in the region, found themselves without the possibility of ever getting work. Not because they didn't want to, they couldn't. While the rest of the country experienced a boom in industry, they did not.

I don't know anything about the States, but I find it hard to believe that there aren't some places that have struggled with chronic unemployment. Places where people desperately want work but can't get it.

Now some blamed the government, but the government can't be responsible for creating industry. They can't force corporations to set up plants in one area or another. Some of the provinces are now working hard on development and it's working, but it will take time before all those who had jobs will have them again. In the mean time, the government pays out welfare, and gives incentives to go back to school, and tries to lure industry with tax breaks and does what it can to help maintain the quality of life of the people of the region. No one knows when things will get back to normal, but no one is judgemental about how long someone is on welfare, or whether or not the person is really looking for work or not.

I like that. I like the fact that my government does that. It is a part of the reason why in this country we have a highly educated work force, with a high literacy rate, and a very low crime rate and a standard of living that was voted the best in the world by the UN three years in a row.

And as far as healthcare is concerned I actually know quite a bit about the system here, not only because my Mother spent her life working in it, but also because it has literally saved my life, and the lives of people very close to me. I have a friend with leukemia. Not only did he receive immediate care, but he was fortunate enough to be treated by doctors who are at the top of their field. I know for a fact that he couldn't have survived these past seven years without there expertise and their willingness to try out non traditional methods of treatment. Because of them, he has been a part of my life longer than he would have without that treatment.

My wife's best friend has Chrone's disease, and when she needed very expensive tests they gave it to her. Immediately. She didn't have to shop around for the best HMO, she didn't have to worry about someone wealthier than her getting better care because they could afford it. Both the wealthy and the not so wealthy get the same care. Period. And I have to be honest, it makes me sick to my stomach that a 'coin toss' could be made about someone's life, someone who means so much to me and my wife. She's a person, a human being, not a number on a bottom line.

I'm sure that if we looked we could find people in both countries who have been let down by the health industry. I can't speak for them. I can really only speak of my own experience and those of the people I know. And from what I've heard and seen, the deeper problems in healthcare today have less to do with the private/public debate and more to do with management issues that cross boarders and are very complex and have no easy answers.

You're a proud american. That's great. And I hope your president does well. Jag I thought that speech was hilarious, but I would add that he was elected by a minority of the people, and I'm sure that if he wants to get elected again, he's going to have to keep that in mind. (I like his hiring practices so far. Nothing against Cheney, but personally I thing Powell would have made an awesome vice president! He Rocks!)

I love Canada. I'm a proud Canadian. Always have been, always will be. Sure we have problems here, but nothing that we can't work out in a peaceful and orderly fashion with compassion and understanding.

[This message has been edited by Kush (edited 03-20-2001).]

[Guest]

Kush,

Sorry to have to break this to you, but after ALL the votes were counted, Bush actually won a majority in the popular vote as well.

You will not hear this in our mainstream media, because they are the poster boys and cheerleaders of the liberal left. Yes, that is true!!!

Cheney was the best Choice for VP, Powell was the BEST choice for Secretary of state.

He made the right choices for all of those positions, Powell is not yet politically savvy enough to be VP, but after his stint as secretary of state he will be.

It's all in the experience, and that is the way it should be.

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CMDR Jaguar

GCV Armageddon, Starpath (Mars)

Prime Fleet, Delta Wing

External Beta Tester

Battlecruiser Millennium

[argee]

I had high hopes for "W" but I am fearing that the far right wing of the republican party has his ear now. The back tracking of CO2 emissions and the scuttling of the ten year work on carple tunnel legislation all stinks to high heaven. (corporate contibutions. Coal industry gave over 3 million to W's campaign fund)

He wants to stop the mechanics stike at NW airlines eventhough they have not had a raise since 1992 yet airline executives saleries have increased 103% over the same time period.

I hoped he would be a middle of the road republican and not one married to the far right but its starting to look like that is not the case.

Thanks Ralph Nader. Look what you gave us!

[Guest]

And to the above, so what, if it weren't for the executives, they(mechanics, pilots, stewards etc) wouldn't have a job.

Fact is, if it weren't for RICH people creating wealth by investing it in companies, stocks, bonds, etc. there wouldn't be any jobs for the rest of us. I say pay them like crazy, create more jobs, equalize the tax program by lowering the top marginal percentage to 10%, kill the capital gains tax, and the death tax, and watch the economy explode.

Also, what is up with this CO2 stuff, got proof? If you do, I wanna see it!!!

There has yet to be a credible scientific study on "global Warming".

W is doing the job we sent him to do, and doing a damn good one too.

The more environmentalists he pisses off the happier I am!!!

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CMDR Jaguar

GCV Armageddon, Starpath (Mars)

Prime Fleet, Delta Wing

External Beta Tester

Battlecruiser Millennium

[Guest Shingen]

Is this a BC3K forum or Rush Limbaugh's Radio program??

Hmmm... could be both??

EIB meets BC3K!

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Commander Shingen

UCV Deathstrike

Assassin

"Death is inevitable, it's life that's uncertain"

[MerfGlurf]

Hoorah Jaguar and Aramike!

Forgive me for butting in, but I don't often meet someone else who shares my political views outside of church.

I live on the Gulf Coast of MS. It's a nightmare here. Like a trip back to the 60's/70's... We seem to have developed our own unique counterculture. Mix socialism, hippie drug/open sex culture, and environmentalism with racism (whites AND blacks) and laziness and you have the Mississippi Gulf Coast. Yech. It's disgusting the propaganda they get away with teaching in schools here. I didn't find out that Global Warming was only a theory until I was about 15. The way it's worded by the books, it comes off like it's a universally accepted fact.

Just so you know, I personally regard the 2nd amendment as one of the checks and balances of our country. It positively ensures against tyranny. Hehe, there isn't any government in the world that could control a few million armed citizens. Not with any military power known to man, not with weapons of mass destruction, not with anything.

Incidentally, you guys ever read that quote from Ben Franklin? It goes something like: "...those who bend their spears into plowshares, plow for those who don't..." hehe, I think I'll make that my sig

[This message has been edited by MerfGlurf (edited 03-20-2001).]

[Pioneer]

How did I miss a political thread?

The beautiful thing about the United States is that it was founded on the concept that the individual is free to pursue whatever goals he wants without any restrictions outside of himself (using the masculine tense for simplicity). The problem is that people in this country have become addicted to "welfare" of various types to the point that only 65% of Americans support a tax cut because they have been told that the resulting loss of revenue will cut off their "welfare". When I say "welfare" I mean Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, farm subsidies, college loans, discount mortgages, etc. etc.

What happened to the concept that you went out and bettered yourself without help from the government? Countries with subsidized health care have higher taxes and lower quality of service than countries with privatized health care. The research and statistics proving that are in the public domain and easily accessible. Do you wonder why the United States invents the vast majority of the world's new drugs and new medical techniques? Because of competition and capitalism. If you don't innovate, you don't survive, because in a privatized health system you have to compete for every patient. I'm sorry Kush, but despite its flaws, health care in the United States is cheaper, more effective, and faster than Canada, Sweden, Great Britain, or any other country with socialized medicine.

Thanks to the spending habits of the US government, people have become addicted to handouts in various forms. The downside to this is that most of those handouts are paid for by the wealthiest citizens of the country, which is surely not what the Founding Fathers had in mind. Believe it or not, lots of people on welfare refuse to work because they are lazy. Those people are getting free money, free health care, free social services, and are paying no income taxes at all. Workfare programs are an excellent way to pull out the people that really are interested in working, but just can't get started, and another good plan is giving welfare money directly to the states to administer (cutting out federal pork barrel politics).

I am so happy to finally see the Republicans in control of Congress and the White House because I want my money back...its as simple as that. I'm paying a significant chunk of my paycheck for government services that I will never need, and its just not right. If I wanted to do that I would move to France.

~Pio

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Commander Pioneer

ICV-Striker, Spectre (Antis)

Spectre Fleet

"If you're thinking about losing, you're already dead."

[Guest]

I'm feeling better already, you 2 above have made me feel like I actually have company.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!

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CMDR Jaguar

GCV Armageddon, Starpath (Mars)

Prime Fleet, Delta Wing

External Beta Tester

Battlecruiser Millennium

[Advil]

Jag, Pioneer, Merfglerf, etc...

Right there with you.

(Too lazy to write up anything profound right now)

[echo]

I always miss the good stuff!!!!

Group Hug everyone...

xoxoxoxox

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Captain Echo

ICV Persephone, New America Starstation (Midae)

Eversor Fleet

ICQ# 31736776

[Guest]

You haven't missed anything, it's just that Kush has yet to respond and neither has anyone else for that matter(when it comes to the liberal bent anyway). When Kush responds, you will probably see a number of us jump on it. He's our resident liberal it looks like.

I am looking forward to what he has to say next, so we can shoot it down!! lol

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CMDR Jaguar

GCV Armageddon, Starpath (Mars)

Prime Fleet, Delta Wing

External Beta Tester

Battlecruiser Millennium

[Sunanta]

Personally, I believe that extremes are bad. The further away we get from the extremes, the better off we are. In other words, the far right is misguided. Equally so is the far left. The moderate right and moderate left are better, but we can certainly do better than that. The farthest from both extremes is, of course, the center. According to Aristotle (I've had some spare time lately), virtue is moderation, whereas vice is extremism (for example, cowardice and foolhardiness are opposite extremes, yet they are both equally as bad. Smack in the middle is courage, which is good, of course. A more applicable example is Communism and Fascism. One is the extreme left, whereas the other is the extreme right. They are equally as bad). Therefore, the conservatives and liberals are equally as bad or good, depending on how you look at it. They deserve each other. Since we aren't going to all suddenly become moderates any time soon, we need both parties to maintain equal clout so as to counterbalance each other, which would maintain a moderate equilibrium. I could cite others to further drive home my point, but I think you get the picture.

[This message has been edited by Sunanta (edited 03-24-2001).]

[Wolferz]

jumps into the fray, coming between the combatants

POINT:

Welfare.

A sore subject in any land if you ask MHO.

In America, I have been witness to many of the ways that deadbeats milk the welfare system for all it's worth.

Case in point: I'm in a convenience store in Michigan one night, grabbing a soda. One can't buy too much in a convenience store because they jack the prices up exponentially.

But in this store was a couple, shopping for groceries, with a baskcart! Filled it to the top they did. At the register the woman paid for the items with food stamps. They pushed the baskcart loaded with bagged groceries outside and loaded them into the trunk of a brand new Cadillac.

Here's how the scam works. Woman goes on welfare shortly after her first marriage breaks up. The couple have produced one or two children during the two year marriage. So, she gets money and food stamps for them as well. The woman will quickly find an employed male to move into the house. Usually this male will not be reported on the lease of the government housing the woman and her three children now occupy. Yes, that's right, three children. The third has appeared from the boyfriend, reported as father unknown, and signed onto the welfare rolls with the rest of the family. More money, more food stamps, and a possible housing upgrade.

So here you have a couple living like royalty. The boyfriend works to pay for all the trappings of modern life, while they get free food, housing, and monetary assistance for utilities from the taxpayers.

I'm all for giving someone a leg up when they're down on their luck, but to support people who feel no remorse for the act of fraud, just burns my bacon.

COUNTERPOINT:

Insult.

Insult can't begiven, unlesstaken.

I agree that certain comments in a previous thread were accusatory, inflammatory, defaming, and just down right rude. Hey, if the post violates the statutes of conduct for this board, my humble suggestion would be swift and utter censorship.

It's also possible that the author was quite drunk when he keyed that diatribe. Political discussions are like homing beacons to all the chaps with a belly full of loudmouth.

Like a moth to a flame.