Põdi

quote:Originally posted by Steve Schacher: This would be such an obviously stupid thing to do, that any delegate at the Constitutional Convention in 1789 would have been tossed out immediately. This is a false argument. It was purely hypothetical. In some cultures (round Turkistan, Uzbekistan)they still chew on opium leaves for stimulation. Were the founding fathers aware at the time of the dangers of addictive drugs? Tobacco was very popular 200 years ago. What if there was a clause about tobacco? Now people are aware of the dangers, would the government be able ban or restrict tobacco if everyone was entitled to it as laid down in the constitution? They may seem like rather odd analogies, but I'm just trying to make a distinction between what is relevant now and what was relevant then. Another point about the Tony Martin trial, as Jez stated, the burglars were unarmed and, iirc, fleeing from him (the kid was shot in the back). I wasn't aware that his shotgun was illegally owned, but it doesn't take much to get one. My Father, being a vicar, used to sign shotgun applications left, right and centre for the local guys, who were generally farmers using the guns for pest control.

Woot, thanks aramike. I'll gladly pay postage, I just refuse to pay for Express overseas post and import duties. Like someone else said, I don't mind paying SC his well-earned money, but $35 for postage from EB is pretty silly. Send me a private post nearer the time. Thanks again Paddy

Thanks Jez, you stated very clearly in one post what I've probably been trying (and failing) to do so in several. Cheers Macca

Yay! Good man Kush. BTW, I never snogged a pimple in my life

That sounds rather sad doesn't it? Anyway, as we are probably not going to see BC:M in Switzerland for months, anyone fancy buying an extra copy and sending it to me? I know it's a bit of a cheek, but you never know if you never ask (Found that out trying to get girls to snog me when I was a pimply youth)

Just throwing a search into Yahoo gave me this Then again I also got this amongst others of course. These are just 2 I pulled at random. It all depends what your agenda is as to which statistics you believe. I'm afraid it's all a case of Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee. But it's interesting to talk about it. Another talking point: if the US constitution contained a paragragh which stated that every US citizen should have free and unfettered access to narcotic drugs, what would be the situation now? Oops, bad link, which is why: [ 06-14-2001: Message edited by: Paddy Gregory ]

quote:Originally posted by aramike: Or, is only the right to bear arms flawed? In my opinion yes. I actually thought you'd typed the bit about protecting the innocent incorrectly, which is why I questioned it. Sorry if I sounded a little sarcastic, it wasn't meant that way. And Jaguar, I've never actually heard that story about the Swiss General, but knowing Swiss logic and directness, there's probably some truth in it. I have an idea that the Swiss plan if invaded was to retreat to the high mountains and conduct a guerilla war from there. This would have been a huge burden on the German war effort, and probably not worth the bother. Oh, that and the fact the Germans had an awful lot of stolen gold nice and secure in Swiss bank vaults . Now ask yourself why the Swiss economy is so strong and stable. As to the standard of the current Swiss army, I couldn't tell you. One of my friends who came back to Switzerland after growing up in the States said that all he learnt in the Swiss army was how to smoke dope and gamble. The next Swiss army reform will probably be the abolition of national service in favour of a smaller, full-time professional army. Also, the reason the crime rate here in Switzerland is so low is that the Swiss just aren't like that. Even non-violent crime is low (or under-reported). So every able-bodied man having a weapon in the house is not a deterent. I don't think they're allowed to keep ammunition at home anyway (though I'm not sure of that). They tend to blame most crime on foreigners as well.

Personally, I think it was Phil the Greek's private stash. Dirty old bastard. And we all know his views on foreigners (which are pretty rich coming from a Greek-born Danish German)

Actually, I'm just thinking about what happens here in Switzerland. They have National Service for all men (and some women) between the ages of 18 and 40 (I think). You do 17 weeks basic training, then a specific number of weeks per year in barracks. You keep your semi-automatic weapon at home (usually under the bed , from the people I know) and you MUST attend range practice once a month throughout the year. It's quite amusing seeing guys completely kitted out getting on a train full of commuters in the mornings. Switzerland can assemble a standing army of something like 500 000 fully-armed men within 24hrs or so. Why anyone would want to invade I have no idea, everyone has WAY too much money invested here. There is also nothing worse than getting stuck behind a tank or half-track on a country lane with no option to overtake! Not sure if all my facts are entirely correct (as usual) but Starfighter may be able to put me right.

Naughty naughty

Your welcome You know, I actually followed a similar thread in another forum once (without participating) and it really got quite nasty and abusive before being closed by the admin. I'm glad to say this one is rather civilized, even we don't agree on anything. Just one point, what do mean when you say you have more freedom than we do? In what way?

quote:Originally posted by aramike: That is called punishing the innocent, and is what our constitution stands for. Really? I thought it was meant to protect the innocent. There you go again, throwing your constitution around. Have you ever thought it might be outdated and, well, flawed?

Hehe, thought I would get a bit of a mauling, but never mind. Like I said, it was an observation from overseas and I was typing as I was thinking, so it probably sounded a bit rambling. Jaguar, from your posts and your demeanour (sp?) you are obviously a responsible gun-owner, but how many people are not? That is the question. Also, the media can only report and sensationalise shooting incidents which actually happen and from what I see, it occurs more ofetn in the US, per capita, than any other country. I think what I was tryng to say is that your constitution facilitated a gun culture (I was going to say created, but that is too strong) which is why you have this ongoing debate now. Then again, you have a relatively young democracy, maybe it still needs time to mature, I don't know. And aramike, I'm all for freedom of speech, religion etc and the British law is all for it, but we don't going around shoving it in peoples' faces when it suits us. Living in Switzerland as a foreigner, I actually have fewer rights than most, but it was my choice and to be honest I couldn't give a toss anyway. I can't vote here and to be honest, with the amount of referenda we have here, I'd be sick of it anyway. It's late and I've drunk a bottle of very nice red wine so I'm rambling again. What's the weather like? We lost the cricket but won the rugby, life goes on. TTFN Paddy

I've been following this with interest and I have a few observations, some of which may not sit well with our transatlantic cousins. These are merely from an outsiders viewpoint and possible reflect many peoples opinions regarding US gun laws. *Climbs up on high horse* I've made no secret of my dislike of guns, that is just a personal opinion. I have no objection to responsible people owning guns under a correctly regulated system. What bugs me is that in my opinion, gun owners are merely hiding behind your constitution as vindication of gun ownership. My American history is, well, non-existant, but this could apply to any country's constitution or legislation. The constitution was written over 200 years ago, how can this still be relevant in the 21st century? It seems to me that people use this as an excuse to own a gun.: 'I'm going to buy a gun because the constitution lets me' Has anyone ever wondered why there is so much gun crime? Is it maybe something to do with the number of guns available, because of the above point? Many people in this thread have made the distinction between legally and illegally posessed firearms, yet has anyone ever considered that many illegal firearms were once legally owned firearms, which have somehow made their way into the hands of the criminal community? Jaguar's statement above that he has unregistered firearms to me is plain irresponsible. If said guns are stolen, that's a few more for criminals which are totally untraceable. I think it is safe to say, just by the law of averages, that if the number of legally available guns had been lower in the past, so would the number of illegal firearms. Because of the constitution, burglars are going to 'pack' because there is a fair chance that your average man in the street is similarly equipped. Yes, we get violent crime in the UK too, and any shooting invariably makes the national press, a lethal shooting certainly will. Yet I can sit and watch the news for weeks without hearing about such an incident. It's just a completely different attitude we have. Our police aren't even armed, and I hope they never will be, where would it end? As a scientist, there will be opportunities for me to work in the US, but as a father, I would think twice. Do I want my girls to go to a school with armed security guards and weapon-detectors? Not particularly, no. OK, so it's a deterrent, but what brought about the need for such a deterrent? Go back to my original point. *Falls off high horse (don't like them much either)* My arguments may not be water-tight, but they are based on my opinions and feelings as an outside observer. If anything I've said is blatantly inaccurate, then I stand corrected. Like I said, just an impression, that's all.

Back again, it' was a while back, but several people questioned my comparing US and UK crime statistics, as the US population is larger. I did actually bear that in mind before I posted. The population of the US is what? 150 million, 200 million? The UK is around 60 million. There has been ONE school shooting in the UK in the last 10 years or so. I can think of 5 or 6 such incidents in the US in the last 2 years alone. Now work out the figures.

quote:Originally posted by Jaguar: Paddy, I have no Idea where you heard this, but it is an outright LIE!!! The founding fathers knew EXACTLY what that statement meant. It meant the free and unfettered access to firearms by a free people. You have NOT read the Federalist papers or you would know this, TRY AGAIN!!! That was an unadultered lying piece of propaganda put out by antigunners, it suckered you in, but it IS an outright Perversion of what the 2nd amendment of the US constitution is for!! So throw some more of that socialist propaganda at me, and let me tear nice BIG Holes in it!!!!! OK, I never read whatever you are talking about, but I do know the origin of the expression 'to bear arms' and maybe your founding fathers meant exactly what they said, it's just they mis-used the phrase in the first place (and before you ask, I never heard that argument from the anti-gun lobby, it was actually in a documentary about warfare by the author Frederik Forsyth. As for socialism, you can shove it up your arse, I've never been a socialist and never will be, I actually voted Conservative before I moved to Switz. I'm just someone who believes in the sanctity of human life, and as far as I'm concerned, the less instruments designed for taking away a human life, the better.

Ok first off, coming fromthe UK, where gun ownership is VERY limited, the number of gun-related crimes is negligible compared with the US. Secondly, to compare the attack in Japan with the various incidents in US schools is just ludicrous. For example, the attack in Colombine, as far as I can see, was pre-determind and planned, but only cos the kids knew they could easily get there hands on firearms, if all they could find were a few kitchen knives, do you think the death toll would have been so high. Also, the two kids who sat in a tree in Arkansas (?) wouldn't have killed so many if all they had was assorted cutlery to throw at their classmates. The point I'm trying to make is that the ready availablity of guns make such incidents all the more common, I'm not trying to ban guns, but making them easier to control and more difficult to acquire would certainly reduce such incidents. Such knife incidents do occur, unfortunately, but imagine the carnage if that guy had access to any kind of firearm? Lastly, and a minor point, the phrase 'to bear arms' refers to a coat of arms in a battle or conflict, not weaponry. It was only the writers of the outdated and oh-so revered American constition who took it out of context and facilitated gun ownership for every tom, dick and harry who fancied it.

I'm not going to get heavily into this but guns are made for killing, knifes are generally for cutting things, usually vegetables. To poorly paraphrase a well overused saying: 'People weren't made for killing people, guns were made for killing people' Hate guns, they scare the shit out of me.

I like the idea of taking out a cruisers launch bays so it can't launch any ships at you. Something lacking in other space sims. BTW Emmett, that disc still hasn't arrived!

Ok, so what about those countries which don't have EB?

quote:Originally posted by Plasmic: Maybe it would have sold better if it had a little yellow Pikachu like critter on the front of the box. Too true, too true. Seriously though, I think the reason it didn't sell well was because Interplay mad a complete bollocks of the marketing. Then they went and screwed over the entire FS community by retaining the FS rights when Volition went to THQ. Couldn't say I was totally upset when I heard that Interplay got bought out themselves. I got FS and FS2 about the same time and was completely hooked for weeks. XWA didn't seem the same after that.........

Did anyone ever use Switchouse to trade games? I bought Deus Ex for $12 back in Feb. and just traded it for Diablo II. Total cost (inc. P&P) around $20 for 2 recent top-rated games. You won't find many better deals than that methinks. It's especially useful for me as English language versions of games are always much more expensive over here. I haven't bought a game brand new for nearly a year. Mind you, I may well make an exception when BCM comes out and it is certainly one game I will NOT trade. How can you trade something that has unending possibilities? [ 06-01-2001: Message edited by: Paddy Gregory ]

quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: I'm not here to babysit anyone Bollocks. We're really stuck for someone to watch the kids on Saturday night. But seriously. Fine by me, I just wanted to make my feelings known. You'll hear no more from me on the subject. (Sure you're not free Saturday?)

Your welcome. However, you'll quickly find out that my ability to help is severely limited by a) a complete lack of knowledge of the Battlecruiser series and a not-so-complete lack of knowlege of anything silicon-based.

No, not yet Emmett. I'm hoping it'll be in the post for me when I get home tonight (Please God). Not that I'll have time to play it of course, what with the rugrats to be collected, fed, watered, bathed and put to bed.