CommanderJohnson

Just imagine boarding another cruiser or carrier. Fighting to the bridge. Hitting the SELF-DESTRUCT button, and running off before it explodes. That should get you like 50000 EP.

1. If ANYONE is going to respond with some more pro-socialism stuff PLEASE RESPOND TO MY LAST POST. 2. Jaguar is really right about the individual choice. ***NOTHING*** about capitalism is stopping you from GIVING the money you EARN to the poor. Getting the government to take it from people who earn it and give it to the poor isn't moral, but STEALING.

quote: Originally posted by Menchise: It also recognizes something that capitalism doesn't: superior abilities, skills, and/or talents do not constitute superior human beings. Actually, better qualities make them better humans in a utilitarian framework. They may not be better PEOPLE morally or ethically, but some people ARE better than others, and there is NO WAY to create a class structure based on morals and ethics, so it comes down to natural traits, which leaves some people better than others. quote:The possession of talent is genetically incidental, skills are either learnt from experience or taught by others, and abilities are a combination of both. It is not one's fault if one is not overtly talented, thus it is unreasonable to punish one who isn't, and it's unreasonable to supremacize one who is. Tough luck. In a socialist system you are punishing people who have the "talent". Your saying that people who win races should be punished because they are too good. That's where hard work, which capitalism supports, comes into play. You may have the best TALENTS in the universe, but if you don't work hard, you get nothing. quote:Another reason is that regardless of the high levels of ability, skill, or talent that one might have, it is impossible for one to possess all abilities, skills, or talents; one who is regarded as inferior in capitalism would nevertheless have abilities, skills, and talents that someone who is regarded as superior does not have. By making one group subordinate to another, as capitalism does, any individual abilities, skills, and talents of the 'underclass' that cannot be exploited by the 'overclass' for their own ends (which usually involve trying to subordinate or destroy other members of the 'overclass') are suppressed, because they threaten the power of the 'overclass', thus the entire system is weakened by a reduction in employed aggregate ability, skill, and talent.Focualt was a moron. Short of that, I want to see you draw a SPECIFIC LINE that denotes the "overclass" from the "underclass". Tell me EXACTLY what people are in the overclass, and which are in the underclass. Your operating in an abstract fashion that's always going to benefit you since your being an idealist, but will never benefit the world since you can't give concrete examples. quote:It is no accident that over the course of time, class division has become increasingly polarized: the number of social classes has decreased as a result of class-driven revolutions, particularly the overthrow of the feudal lords by the capitalists. Each successful revolution has brought about a better society (every knowledgeable socialist would agree that capitalism is better than feudalism). The next step forward for human civilization is the end of class division, thus the full employment of aggregate ability, skill, and talent.Your "next step" is impossible. Who is going to determine who is employed doing what and where without a ruling "smarter" class to decide. The revolution will never happen because someone HAS to be in control, and if it DOES happen, it'll be a revolution to anarchy, which will start the ENITE cycle over again. Ok, no one has told me yet, and I really want you to tell me now. How EXACTLY is a socialist society going to work? You keep talking in abstract terms, but that ISNT the real world. Menchise, if you really beleive in a socialist system, please explain exactly how one would be formed in the current world, and exactly what effects it would have. Please explain: 1. If a country becomes socialist, it's interactions with other nations militarily and economically. 2. How it's government would transition and then subsequently work. 3. What the people in the CURRENT system would be doing in a socialist system. Please explain what they would do in their every day lives, their MOTIVES for doing those things, how their achievement would be measured, and how they would gain material things in regards to: a. Government Officials b. CEOs and high executives of companies c. Middle management d. Independent business owners e. Employees of independent business owners. f. People surviving solely off welfare g. Homeless people h. Radical groups (the *radical* state militias, neo-nazis, KKK members, racists, etc) If you can respond to the three above questions and all sub-questions in a logical and realistic manner, i'm quite sure that everyone who is arguing against socialism would STRONGLY support it. Short of that, socialism is utopian and would NEVER work and NEVER be helpful.

Next week I start flying a stormcarrier. Going to be fun managing all of those assets AND staying alive.

Ok, now, there's no reason to not let a FREE people own something if it's virtually pointless not to. Only reasons i've heard left are: 1. Guns increase crime. 2. Guns let innocent people hurt themselves. Now, off the first argument, I really agree with Jaguar. It makes logical sense. Sure, guns are TOOLS that *can be* used by CRIMINALS to commit VIOLENT acts, but *CRIMINALS* who are going to *KILL SOMEONE* are going to break gun control *LAWS* anyway, and the LAW-ABIDING citizens will be put at the MERCY of the CRIMINALS. If your a criminal and your target MIGHT have a gun, your less likely to go after them, and more likely to commit a different crime (a burglary of a store or move to a different area) It's impossible to make the argument that criminals WANT to get killed. So with that, all that's left is the argument that guns let innocent people get killed. If some adult is stupid enough to kill him/herself, it improves the gene pool of the human race. Short of that, guns are tools. People can kill themselves by driving into walls, hitting their head when jumping into swimming pools, falling down stairs, accidently cutting themselves, falling off builidings, etc. Should ALL of those things be outlawed because people MIGHT hurt themselves? Don't think so. The same thing can happen with children too. So with that, guns decrease crime, and might kill a few innocent people, and gun control laws get rid of the few innocent people killed by their own guns, and increase the number killed by criminals. Who the hell cares about the rest of the arguments? Guns are HELPFUL. What's next, the US should disarm all of their nuclear weapons because nukes are evil, and then we should be at the mercy of the rest of the world? Morons. So, what's the point after that?

My genetically inferior comments were underexplained. My point is that total morons are either: 1. Have DNA strands that make them unable to comprehend certain concepts, thus they are of less value to society in jobs that are typically well paid (management, sciences, etc). I think this is most likely true since some people are stronger than others physically. 2. Are raised at an early age in a fashion that makes them total morons later in life. 3. Don't work hard because they just don't care. The genetically inferior (now defined) gain from the rich in a socialist country, while in a capitalist country, the inferior can gain from CONTRIBUTIONS and KINDNESS from people that feel that way because of religion or just an innate feeling of compassion, as opposed to advocating the government STEAL from the rich and give to the poor.

quote:Originally posted by Remo Williams: quote:Originally posted by Dredd: quote:Originally posted by Remo Williams: I tryed the second computer idea. She took it with her when she left me at least. I've been fighting her for the house and a equal division of the property since march. Good luck!! Sorry to hear that. Sounds like it sucked bad. We've been married for 16 years so you could say that. It appears to be far from over at this point. She won't budge and inch on what she wants, and I'm not willing to just walk away from half of my lifes work. The point to this is though her main complaint was I didn't spend any time with her or my kids. That I kept my nose buried in my PC when I came home. Well with the nature of my business I didn't have much choice. It put food on the table and cloths on our backs. Except for the time I spent beta testing. LOL! Well, look on the bright side. You have more time to play Battlecruiser with all of us now!

My rant was when I was half asleep. Put simply, you can't ban everything that can be misused.

quote:Originally posted by Lotharr: 1)Love, compassion, strength of character.....things you may not know about personally. Ok, so a socialist system will make a human CAPABLE of love, compassion, and strength of chracter? I really do fail to see the relationship. There would not be marriage, charity organizations, and honest people if capitalist societies did not render people CAPABLE of those things. Also, PLEASE EXPLAIN to me how socialism MAKES PEOPLE LOVE, CARE, and FEEL COMPASSION. Giving the capability doesn't mean it'll help anything. Socialism actually equals oppression and hatred since it MAKES people LOOK like they are "loving" by giving the fruits of their labor to the poor. Just think about why there was so much hatred of blacks in the south after the Civil War and desegregation. True, part of it was because of history, but a lot of it was because people were being FORCED to accept blacks. quote:2) Not every single person.....but at least they would have a fighting chance.Which people ARE going to be then? The people who work the hardest sure aren't going to see the benefits, cause they are going to be constantly stolen from. The lazy ones sure aren't, because eventually EVERYONE will become lazy in the society, and there is nothing left for them except death. quote:3) While you don't care about the people that keep your streets clean....that clean acknowledges what you don't appreciate.People who "keep my streets clean", I appreciate, and they are paid for their jobs. If they enjoy their jobs (and the resulting pay), they should keep doing them. If not, they should work hard to change their situation. There's no reason why they DESERVE what people who have harder working jobs EARNED. quote:Do you know what it means to have a foundation? People do the best they can but the janitor who takes disease from me has no more honor then the man who develops the next OS.Yes, but in order to get people to achieve MORE, you need a capitalist society. If EVERYONE was provided for, and money didn't matter at all/as much, why would scientists care about getting a huge discovery? Right now, it's money and fame. In a socialist society, neither would really matter, and they would have less of a propensity to start on that track since they could live happy and full lives WITHOUT jobs that require exploration and advancement. quote:Yeah we have power and look at the evil that is pulled to us. Power doesn't make right it makes a interesting bookmark in history.Canada has very little international power. I read the international news reguarly, and the last thing I heard about Canada was they were *****ing about some of their troops getting killed in Afghanistan (possibly to allied fire). It's not like the United States hasn't lost troops to allied fire. At least WE don't ***** about it as much. quote:How can a society have "advancement, profit, accomplishment, and value" with a socialist system? No one has yet been able to explain a REAL WORLD SCENARIO where a socialist society does all of those things. It seems sorta counter-intuitive since there will never be advancement when the people who work the hardest have the most taken away from them to help the poor ones. People will just stop working as hard and fall just below the average level of income so they get helped out and dont need to work. quote:Why....most real progressives do it for the belief they have.....you put a price tag on it and I wonder how much real talent we have lost by corporate interpretation.Ok, human nature would say to do the least work possible to stay alive and happy, with no focus on achievement. In a socialist system, achieveing people are punished and lazy people are rewarded. Also, you still have FAILED TO GIVE A REAL WORLD SCENARIO. If you really want ANYONE to buy your IDEALIST view of the world, explain *HOW A SOCIALIST STATE WOULD FOSTER ACHIEVEMENT FOR THE FOLLOWING: (1) A lazy person with very few favorable genetic traits. and (2) A hardworking person who desires to achieve as much as he can for himself through hard work. Please explain what each person DOES, and why each person CONTINUES TO WORK when they are TOTALLY provided for by the government, and the benefits of the HARDWORKER are given to the LAZY PERSON. If I chopped trees so well I doubt I'd care.

Get shotgun. Kill greedy bastards. Feel good.

Socialism-take the smart, honest, and/or hardworking people's achievements and give them to the lasiest genetically inferior sh*theads in the world, and say it's for the "good of society". Smart people get sick of it, work less, society is destroyed. Capitalism-take the smart, honest, and/or hardworking people's achievements, and give them to the smart, honest, and hardworking people. Let the lasy, genetically inferior shi*heads in the world starve and die. Society benefits because of increased work ethic so you DONT DIE.

Wow, I just connected Jaguar from the political discussion to the Jaguar in the gamulans. This is great, I get right-wing support in arguments AND in combat. Come on MULTIPLAYER!

So the SC is milking us for even MORE money by making it stand alone? Great, he deserves it since all the BC games **ROCK**!

I thought Hamil and Ford did a good job in all of the original trilogy, and had memorable lines that ***weren't painful*** like "Your so smooth". Normally I like to remember lines from movies because they are GOOD, not because they were PAINFUL. [ 05-21-2002, 19:09: Message edited by: Dredd ]

quote:Originally posted by Remo Williams: I tryed the second computer idea. She took it with her when she left me at least. I've been fighting her for the house and a equal division of the property since march. Good luck!! Sorry to hear that. Sounds like it sucked bad.

quote:Originally posted by Lotharr: Because in the end you value people for their ability to produce and consume when a human is capable of so much more. Right now because we have so much of the world's market we can waste people....we can and do write them off. This will not last. You are blinded by an ego grown from a superior world position....but ourselves, like many other civilizations, will realize this mistake born of arrogance will undo us...but hopefully not before it is too late. Ok, lets see the problems with your argumentation. I'd love to hear the answers to the questions. (1) Uhh, ok, what is this "more" that a human is capable of? (2) How is EVERYONE going to be capable of this "more" in a socialist society? (3) What should humans be valued by, the fact they are humans? That point is already established, but not everyone IS equally important. Some people have different genetic material, and thus are STRONGER, FASTER, SMARTER, NICER, etc than others. Some homeless person on the street or some janitor is not as important as a doctor who is saving my life. Credit goes where credit is due, and that's the benefit of a capitalist society. Another benefit of capitalism is people can achieve their potential. They rise in the social/job hiearchy until their skills don't let them rise any more. The more helpful and useful jobs are recognized more through funds, and the less important are given less money. If you want more money, you move to the maximum of your abilities. In a socialist society, people are rewarded for not working hard, and people are punished for working to the best of their abilities. quote:It's funny you say Canada is unsuccessful....all the posts that I've read from Canadian’s have been for the most part insightful and compassionate. And I'm not sure but I haven't read or seen anything telling me we are being overrun by Canadian immigrants....that seems to be happening from our southern neighbors that got the short end of the economic stick...Canada has close to NO POWER. If you look at most major international relations, Canada is not major. No one really cares about them, that's because they are weak. The US is strong, and we're capitalist (although the socialist/leftist ideals are really hurting us) quote:So what is success....I think a society can have advancement, profit, accomplishment and value without it being at the expense of its neighbors and citizens. Of course you have to genuinely care about people in general to understand what I'm saying. How can a society have "advancement, profit, accomplishment, and value" with a socialist system? No one has yet been able to explain a REAL WORLD SCENARIO where a socialist society does all of those things. It seems sorta counter-intuitive since there will never be advancement when the people who work the hardest have the most taken away from them to help the poor ones. People will just stop working as hard and fall just below the average level of income so they get helped out and dont need to work. I think you need to be leftist/liberal/idealist in order to "understand what you are saying". I care about people, but I don't believe that every person is equal to every other person, and every person has equal rights to everything no matter how hard they work or what genetic material they were born with. I think you need to understand LOGIC, FAIRNESS, and JUSTICE to get what i'm saying. In a socialist society, you are recognizing people equally for whatever they do, no matter how hard they work or IF THEY WORK. The government is taking things *earned* from one person and *giving* them to everyone else. Think "natural instinct". If there was no government, and you chopped down a tree, you wouldn't expect someone to walk up and take it away from you. Now, you probably wouldn't disagree with CHOOSING to give the wood from the tree to some old dying woman who needs to build a house, but you'd disagree with the majority of your community coming up and FORCING you to give it to the old woman. Socialism is STEALING/THEFT by the government.

I agree with Lotharr about the different schools=different lives, as i've been through both. Being stuck with a bunch of overprivilaged sheep whose parents run their lives and then the kids eventually rebel by hurting themselves (drugs, drinking, etc) is bad. Of course, going to a public school where the actual education opportunities are worse and there is more danger to personal well-being and a bunch of underpaid teachers and administrators around isn't much better. As for gun control, Jaguar is right. I can take my car and plow down just about anyone I want that walks outside, and they'd be dead. Hell, i'd maintain that cars are more dangerous than guns because where I live, (1) kids can drive cars at 16, and (2) people can't really run very effectively from a car. At least if someone has a gun, you can SEE it when they have it and you MIGHT live through a hit, and you can hit the ground, run, take cover, or pull out a gun. A car, on the other hand, you don't necessarily see the person coming as easily, you aren't going to be able to dodge it by running, and if it hits you fast enough your dead. Then on the driving issue, cars kill a lot of people too in irresponsible hands. It kills the driver, passengers, people in other cars. Why shouldn't CARS be outlawed? The "accidental death" argument is the WEAKEST IN EXISTANCE for gun control. So why not get rid EVERYTHING that is misused. Lets get rid of household cleaners cause they can be used to make BOMBS. Lets get rid of shoes because you can hide bombs in them. If people who advocate strong gun control take their logic to its conclusion, we would have the same sort of sanctions on ourselves that the UN has on Iraq.

Shoulda taken your military training and shot him for trespassing. What court is going to throw a veteran in jail for killing a trespasser with all of the "patriotism" going around?

That movie ROCKED! ROCKED! ROCKED! You HAVE to love that movie. Fight scenes were great, *MOST* of the acting was good, Jar-jar actually had a PURPOSE, and the plot was starting to bring things together (next one's probably going to be GREAT, bringing together all the plot points from 5 movies). Only ONE gripe: The romance dialogue was painful. I hope no one considers it a SPOILER, but when Anakin was comparing her to SAND, it made me grimace. I mean, "Sand is rough, unlike you. Your so smooth" WTF?!?!? Who wrote this, some aggressive 20 year old who never talked to a woman in his life? The love dialogue was HORRIBLE until about half way to 3/4 way through the movie.

Gun trol is such a simple issue. If someone is trying to kill me or rob me with any type of weapon, (they may even have a gun, since criminals dont CARE about laws against guns) I expect to be able to have the same type of weapon to defend myself. You may not think that's the best way to protect YOURSELF, but don't tell me I can't carry a gun to shoot some bastard trying to hurt myself, my family, or my friends. I bet you'd change your mind about gun control if someone obtained an illegal firearm and shot a bunch of your friends dead and you could have stopped it, had you been carrying a gun.

RIGHT ON JAGUAR! YEAH!

quote:Originally posted by Soback: LOL, gamespot actually went with their paid membership idea. Now I have to be a member to read previews and such. No end to stupidity, hmmm... Do I pay money or do I find some other free site? Let me think about that one. Find a free site. How STUPID is gamespot? I just went there the other day and saw you have to pay now to see 80% of the site. The site was good, but there are about 50 others out there that are just as good or better.

I agree with Silk.

Ok, in order for this debate to actually proceed, i'm going to use the following: Capitalism-what I think of when I hear "Capitalism" Socialism-what I think of when I hear "Socialism" Capitalism prizes giving power to people and focuses on personal achievement. If you work hard, you rise in power and (arguably) happiness. Your able to buy more stuff, get more of what you want, get better care, get better education, get a better job and make more money. The cycle continues as you work hard. If you cease working, you typically lose money, etc, and are forced to work again, in order to be a productive member of society. Society, as a whole, benefits from capitalism because people are virtually forced to work and be productive if they want to be happy. Socialism on the other hand, is more focused on equality. It doesn't matter how hard you work, or what your job is, everyone is helped by the government. A large portion of the money you earn goes into the government, then the money goes back out to help everyone. Health care is free, public services are great, you don't need to worry about being able to live another day. Your taken care of. This lets people relax and not care about self-achievement, since, in theory, they don't need to achieve much in order to continue to live a painless life. I personally believe that Capitalism is better. I think this because of human nature. Not that humans are greedy, but that humans desire to be lazy. People WANT to relax. They want to be able to do nothing. Capitalism gives a goal and a reason to strive. Without work, you fail and live a (arguably) less happy life. Socialism, on the other hand, takes care of you. People have no need to strive to achieve. It'd cause research and development to stagnate because there is no REASON to work hard, since everyone is taken care of. Production would gradually fall off or never change, since the government will take care of everyone. Now, truthfully, I see the merits in both systems. Socialism isn't necessarily HARMFUL, since everyone being taken care of and never worrying about achieving anything isn't necessarily "evil" or "wrong". The one system that I loathe though is socialism IN a capitalist society. The United States. Welfare. Two vastly conflicting values. Capitalism says that we need to work to achieve as much as we can. I buy into that. But then the WELFARE/SOCIALIST aspect takes the money that the people who WORKED HARD for, and gives it to the people who DIDNT work for it. Both systems at the same time is intrinsically unfair and stupid. Either make everyone equal with powerful social programs, or make everyone have to work or be miserable. Don't do both!

I like the Starship Troopers: Military Service=Citizen idea. It makes it so the state is in the hands of people who care about it enough to die for it, as opposed to the people who ***** and moan about how the country is so evil and wrong day after day, without doing a thing to change it. If your willing to die for the fundamental idea of the country, you have a right to voice your opinion through voting to get it changed. If not, well, move. EDIT: Since when/why is Witch with a B a censored word? [ 05-07-2002, 19:33: Message edited by: Dredd ]