Lotharr

quote: So you want another Cold War, where countries that have WMDs and totalitarian regimes can take over other nations with no threat of retaliation? Where those regimes can kill their own people for speaking out against the oppression. So you'd advocate waiting for Iraq's people to rise up against Saddam...great idea, too bad by that time he will have already sold some WMDs to terrorists, and New York will probably be empty and radiated... When has the UN ever sanctioned one country taking over anotheror aggression without reason? You have been here the whole time right? I will put it to you again. Experts that have been called to testify about Iraq agree that he does not represent an immediate threat that the Bush administration would have us believe. So I would say before we run in guns blazing we use this time to create a multi lateral plan and then take action. quote: Ok, I think we all understand that people suffer in war. We all understand that it'd be nice if war wasn't needed. You seem to be saying that all life is valuable and we should try our best to preserve life, and I agree with that too. What we seem to be disagreeing on is what is going to save the most lives. Listening to the "global community" while they are full of many non-committal anti-war activists (until THEY get attacked), is going to cost many more lives. Following their lead, we would wait for Saddam to have WMDs, or use WMDs, or sell WMDs, then attack him with allied support. That SOUNDS good, but that increases the death toll. Saddam's military will be stronger, more people will be in it, and thus more Americans would die AND more Iraqis would die, and more likely than not, WMDs would have been proliferated, and US or European cities would be destroyed, or maybe Israel could fall apart. You work off the assumption that the international community is dumb as a box of rocks. I don't believe they are. They have shown more patience and deeper understanding then this country could begin to muster. Sorry but Europe lived war. We saved them and we think we some bad mo fo's....Vietnam took us sown a notch...as poorly thought out policy will. Perhaps we haven't learned the full lesson yet. Your extrapolation is based off of a poor assessment of the global communities situational awareness skills. They know Sadam is a problem and a threat. What they don't like (I believe) is the greater threat of a powerful country running around making calls without all facts. And I don't like it either. But Bush is now taking his time because his betters have told him to hush for a while. quote: Now, you may maintain that these "forces" are the capitalistic countries like the United States. Well, your wrong. You said that not me. quote: If you look at the countries that the vast majority of terrorists come from, you'll notice that in none of those countries is it a republic/democracy, and/or in none of those countries are the people truly FREE. They are all oppressive regimes. It's not the US that's causing the problems, it's the fact the regimes are oppressive and FEED THEM messages of hate. Global demonsrators at various conventions have been called terrorists and they didn't do anything but catch a beating. I do not assume that a group is actually terrorist because the admin tells me so. But I think one thing is true. As totalitarian regimes fall it will be harder to dismiss people out of hand. quote: "Destroy America, they caused your plight! Destroy America, they caused your plight! (repeats over and over daily in the presses and on the radio)" When you don't have anything contradicting it, and your suffering, what else is there to do except believe it? Destroy Iraq! There gonna get us Destroy Iraq their gonna get us!! That's all I was hearing after 9-11 from our free media....but I'm still here somehow.... quote: That "leader" threatened all of his neighbors and invaded Kuwait. His neighbors may not LIKE United States action now, but it sure isn't going to destablize the region. K God. quote: They are going to be glad to see a power-hungry and dangerous leader like Saddam go Make room for some CEO's quote: Also, if the new nation was not accepted and was attacked by its neighbors, we would probably just go in and take out those regimes too Cool more fighting....you like this cause when your old enough you can still have a war to fight? quote: But I honestly believe that the leadership of other countries in the Middle East is NOT going to mess with the United States Well if your sure..thats enough for me quote: They know that if they do, they are going to get invaded just like Iraq did So then you understand why no one in that immediate are wants us to invade. So do we start a new draft to hold all this land? quote: The less power concentrated in one person, the more rational the regime seems to be... Heh heh....but we got Bush....and all his buddies...and I can't find the rational in running off to war without some good solid debate. quote: Most of this country doesn't know what the rest of the world thinks about us, or doesn't care. Those that do care (I actually care, just not to your extent), realize that the nations that are going to get really UPSET about military action in Iraq pose absolutely no threat to us, and are going to harm us in no way at all. On a cost-benefit analysis, taking out Saddam is a good idea, and it's thinking ahead. If we don't do it now, more will die. For some reason people like to procrastinate "He's not a threat now, let's wait" on and on until finally he IS a threat, and it's too late to get it over with easily. You have no idea how pissing on the rest of the group leads to individual ruin. But one day you will have to work with others. I bet you don't run your personal life shooting from the hip. And again it is all speculation on what would be better in the long run. Who is to say. One man and his crooked advisors? If congress believes it then I would feel a lot better. quote: Could you define this "global partnership..."? What countries are invovled now? What exactly do other countries do and the US should do that would help this global partnership, what kind of US laws would need to be passed, etc, and how would it advance human development and build peace? And how does attacking Iraq without other nations support ruin it? Don't have time for all that I'm a full time soldier at present. However I am joining the Guard and will reclass to 19D tomorrow. So after I get my PHD I will fill you in. For now I would settle for the UN.....international law....international decision making. quote: Races were dehumanized in order to win wars (Japanese during WW2 springs to mind). You can't order a soldier to kill someone who they think is like them, because then they could possibly think of it as murder, hesitate, and get killed themselves. So yes, your right, groups are dehumanized in order to make people feel better about killing others. That shows exactly where the analogy falls apart though. What? No it doesn't it. It does show how governments based of supremacist thinking loose though....and we Americans are pretty awesome aren't we? quote: Hitler dehumanized the Jews. The Jews did nothing to deserve to die. Terrorists, however, dehumanized themselves through suicide bombings of civilians in Israel and ESPECIALLY after 9/11 they were dehumanized to the vast majority of the American public. It didn't even take a government propganda campaign! The terrorists, also, deserve to be dehumanized either way. Now, honestly, I don't think people *deserve* to die, but if the terrorists are a group that is singled out for elimination by society, I see nothing wrong with it. They CHOSE to be terrorists, they KILLED INNOCENT CIVILIANS, and *DIRECTLY* SUPPORT the killing of INNOCENT civilians. If they are going to be an evil force, and they are evil, they should be incapacitated, and it seems that the only way to do that is with a bullet. Yep and now Israeli policy is dehumanizing Palestinians...full circle. Terrorists are people. To stop them we have to understand what it takes to stop people from strapping explosives on their backs. We don't let terror win...we allow freedom and liberty to prevail. And if some people have gone so far as to remove themselves from the humanity we cherish we have to deal with them. That was a good article. However, a lot is based on the assumption that Iraq will fall over and the region does not go crazy. Of course it doesn't have to go crazy we can just piss enough people off that they feel they shouldn't deal with a rouge nation anymore.

quote: Hitler drummed up support by dehumanizing a RELIGION/RACE (depends if you call people Jewish as a religion or race) of people, a group of people that were not intrinsically harmful to society, and were guilty of DOING nothing. Dehumanizing TERRORISTS, however, is different since terrorists ARE intrinisically harmful to society. They are being singled out because of their *actions* not because of their race or religion. The Jews couldn't do anything to stop the persecution, the terrorists can (stop doing it!). Dehumanizing any person or group is the first step in creating some authority base on which to build the justification of killing another human being. It is the home of the ignorant.filled with the morally impoverished and insecure. But it is a large home and makes one feel safe. [ 08-07-2002, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Really all I hear you guys talking about is keeping the same system in place. Violence to meet violence. We ended the cold war without ÔÇÿforceÔÇÖ of arms. We were ready but I never said vigilance is wrong. There is a clear separation between those that use terrorism and those who suffer between two sides that are both equally guilty of failing to make any real progress. To remove the will to fight, those people must want to live. While forces continue to deny basic human needs there will always be a recruiting ground. Military action is advocated to topple a leader that is holding a nation together. Very poorly but he is. If that binding force is removed and a "western friendly" democracy is installed regional resentment will grow. Especially in the face of a single nation that is being told by most other countries to back off for a while. If that new government is not stable and accepted then we will have to commit assists to that area for up to twenty years. If that new country falls apart I don't think it is going to be pretty. The concern is what will happen after such an attack. That is key in understanding what has to be done. So far Bush II (well his bosses) is taking his time. I think his whole administration is feeling the resistance to cowboy tactics. Good for them. We live with other people on this planetÔǪ get over it. As more time goes by we can build relationships or we can throw them away. I don't believe the citizens of this country will allow the world to think of us as the bad guy. We know we can not be like by all...but to hated or resented by too many is unacceptable. We'll see if we can keep it together. I am convinced as time moves forward it will become clear what peace will take. I also believe this clarity will not be created by those currently in power in our country. I further think that those in power may not stay there. While fat cats make millions and people are unemployed by corporate/congressional losers.....the people may truly ask for a change and a reevaluation of certain truths that some see so clearly. So what should America's role be? Look out for our interests but not at the expense of a global partnership aimed at advancing human development and building peace. Take action when needed and do it right the first time Become a leader in a global sense. Adhere to international laws designed to bring peace. Become that beacon of light that we could be. Not settle for sucking in all kinds of material to satisfy an already unsustainable appetite. But thatÔÇÖs just my opinion. It could be right. It could make things harder. But at least I know I donÔÇÖt know it allÔǪhow about you?

How 'bout we stop referring to anyone as animals. Still don't have enough time for a full post. Get back later.

quote: Animals are those that celebrate the death of innocent civilians by their comrades the suicide bombers. They are barbarians. Thanks for clearing that up. Because from this statement: quote: The only thing these animals understand is force of arms, they need to be trampled into the dust until their will to fight is gone, nothing less will stop the attacks. I believe would demonstrate what a true quote: arrogant wannabe is. When a person takes a whole group of people.....blankets them under one dehumanizing comment....and speaks on policy from this truly enlightened 1930ish position we see who is who. I'll post on the rest when I get a chance.

Heh heh...you sure shot down all my points quote: The only thing these animals understand is force of arms, they need to be trampled into the dust until their will to fight is gone, nothing less will stop the attacks. Now I see why you didn't go into law. Who else do you see as animals? [ 08-06-2002, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: The United States is a REPUBLIC!!! nope quote: Actually, it's a Democratic Republic yup... quote: All other considerations take a back seat to our national sovereignty!! So if you believe national sovereignty is so important why is it cool for us to move on another country? Oh...national security. Ok. So we should be the final say on what is just when violating sovereignty (because we have the biggest...er...stick). Therefore, if say, China, thinks its national security is in jeopardy by us it should shoot nukes at us to stop this obvious threat. So...when individual nations decide what is fair and just they should be able to make any move they want to? OR.....should there be an outside binding force representing the will of all nations to decide what is just and fair? Especially a collection of democratic/republic nations? I don't know I'm just spit balling here.... quote: All others take a back seat to our rights as guaranteed to us by our creator, some of those being spelled out in the Bill of Rights. If a treaty or agreement infringes on our rights, see the ICC, then that treaty is unconstitutional and MUST NOT be signed Yup...and Allah has decided his people have had enough so hes gonna give em virgins. quote: If the founding fathers heard you say that, their hair would stand on end I am really curious what they would think....back then things were kinda cut and dry....white people were people and deserved LIBERTY! No taxation without representation....kinda like the Palestinians.....life liberty and the pursuit of happiness...as long as you didn't have red skin....my hair is on end.. quote: A democracy is a will of the people MOB RULE Where did Dragon Lady go anyway..... quote: This is why this country was not and is not a democracy. Problem is, that that is no longer true, as you can see from the MANY unconstitutional laws that have been passed. Why didn't you go into law? Or why don't you? quote: Iraq was talking about letting inspectors back in under different terms than the original agreement. If accepted, that gives the impression that Iraq has some sort of bargaining power. Luckily, it won't be accepted, since the UN (not just the US), doesn't like the idea Time will tell. quote: You say we paint a target on ourselve,s but for who? No free country is going to attack us because of our actions, and no MORE countries are going to become hostile towards us because of an attack on Iraq. We are FREEING the Iraqi people, and that's not going to suddenly make France start sending suicide bombers to the US. We could be setting loose a global nightmare. That is why we must act with others and think hard. Freedom brings peace. However, not all the world is free. Especially in that region. Doesn't seem like free countries are going to attack us. They step back and don't offer assistance and when things get crazy they don't offer aid. quote: Also, how can we work with others? They are saying "dont attack" and "Iraq isn't a threat", and "civilians will die". What exact PLAN is a good idea? There can't be compromise with two totally different ideas. Also, why should the US have to listen to others in THIS SCENARIO. Iraq is a threat to the US, if no one else believes it, that's their problem. We go in, for our own national security and interests, take out Saddam, free the people, create a republic/democracy. Then the people have POLITICAL FREEDOM (which you referenced later). It all seems so straight forward doesn't it? Why do international politics never end up being simple? quote: Yes, the American people should be more compassionate to the plight of other nations. The United States government should NOT, however, MAKE the country give "special consideration" to developing nations. That's taking away individual rights of Americans and thus goes against the idea of this country Get over the American ego and realize that their plight is ours. Or will it take some huge catastrophe to realize this. INVADE ALIEANS INVADE! If we win we will realize we are connected. MELT ICE CAPS!!! So when Florida (that brought us Gore...er...Bush) is gone we will see the global threat.... ETC ETC ETC... Your right...all the other countries should realize our selfness and act now....not. quote: Honestly, I have no idea what causes the plights in under developed countries like Africa. It'd be nice if we all worked together to stop it, but it should NOT be government mandated, and it's possible that the reason why they dont develop is because there is nothing to develop in those countries. (resources) Er...free market anyone? Like credit card debt on a national level. But there is something to develope.....people. This worlds only real reasource....in the end. quote: 3 billion to Israel isn't "keeping oppression up and running". The Israelis keep getting attacked, and have been for the past 50 years. The *UN* created Israel, then they kept getting invaded by every Arab nation nearby not getting into this here..post on the other thread and I'll meet you there. quote: Vietnam we should have made up our mind and either didn't go in or gone in full force and won. That was a disaster, but only because we didn't go for a win 100%. So China could have jumped in then the Soviet Union and we could just had us a brawl and finished it right there! The south didn't care. They were hungry. quote: CONTELPRO Counter intelligence program. The FBI's response to Americans demonstrating their Allah...er...god given right to assemble peacefully. Special agents would stamp cancelled on meeting signs. Infiltrate gatherings and cause disruption. Single out leaders of the so called peace movement and harass them until them were paranoid freaks....I won't say that the drugs didn't add to the effect. Fun stuff like that! quote: Bombing Cambodia...I've heard about it, but forgot the story behind it. Watch "The Killing Fields." quote: Creating bin Laden was a good idea at the time in order to fight off the Russians (who were bad). Just because he then became a threat to us doesn't mean we shouldn't have done it Tell that to the families of those in the twin tower.and this country in general. But I guess we had to make the hard choice. quote: Again, creating Saddam was a good idea at the time. Now we just ahve to take him out I'll think of you if I have to slap a piece of plastic on my driver chest after catching a round creating sucking chest wound..I will wait until he has a shallow inhale, (if he is not crying) and place the plastic material over the wound that is bubbling blood. I will then apply the bandage over the plastic. Next, I will roll SPC Curtiserthe casualty on his side and bark at PV2 Whitney to get on the radio to call for support. Realizing that PV2 Whitney just joined the guard, and is staring at theercasualty with shocked eyes, dropped jaw and frozen hands.I will bark again. As he moves I will reassure the casualty that everything is going to be ok. I take that back. I dont believe that I will be thinking of you. quote: Ok, I need to go soon, but your one line that strikes me is that "lack of political freedom coupled with...". Yes, lack of political freedom causes problems. And, wow, all the terrorism supporting nations DONT HAVE POLITICAL FREEDOM, and it doesnt look like they are going to GET ANY unless we change their government, which is what we are going to do. I don't see any country with political freedom threatening or attacking the United States. You are right. But WE don't have the right. A democratic/republic for world peace has that right. quote: Ok, i'm not going to get to democracy vs republic, but could you tell me what actual ACTIONS you advocate the US doing? I know you say "work together" but what exactly should the President/Congress do, and how will it help? How can we "be a leader"? All should join the green party silly. (they really should) Ok ok....short of that.... 1) Recognize a Palestinian state. 2) Cut funding for Israel 3) Donate 6 billion annually to rebuild Palestine. 4) Insure that Palestine has in its new constitution that is will not attack Israel. 5) Pass a !!U.N.!! resolution that puts any attack on Israel an attack on the world. 6) Install peace keepers 7) Watch as a shocked Arab world looks around and wonders why in the hell they live like they do when they could be living like a thriving democratic Muslim democracy like Palestine. See regime after regime topple. Ok maybe it won't be that clean. However it would allow us to act against $hit balls like Sadam easier. note: This is a very rough outline of a Michael Moore plan in the book "Stupid White Men"....a good read.

*adjusts kevlar and moves towards hell* quote: Only problem with inspecting is he won't let us inspect. That path has already gone nowhere. What other options is it that we have? Sanctions dont work, talking doesn't work, and we're running out of time. Iraq is talking about letting inspectors back in. We should see where it goes. I am not optimistic. quote: Neither is a US city being wiped because people decided to try other options while Saddam was building WMDs. Your operating under the same anti-war thinking that led to 9/11 in the first place, at least now it's not as prevalent. Prior to 9/11, deploying troops was close to political suicide. Now, people are much more receptive to the idea. Yes, it's better to do other options, but in some situations it's best to send in the military. Iraq has proven over the past 12 years that there's no way we're going to get rid of the threat without military action. That may prove true. But we should always seek to understand the situation to the most achievable level possible. And we probably will lose a city. Not from a missile attack but from terrorist action. If we go it alone we risk making ourselves the prime target for people who see no other choice and find an enemy that violates international law. When we place our own needs above everyone else we alienate ourselves and paint the bulls eye. I believe that it is clear to most people and democratic nations that Saddam is a threat. Eventually what has to be done will also become clear. If we work with others to form a plan then we can achieve the same goal but not look like the bully. We have time. That is also clear. So we can do what has to be done with the help of others and save our soldiers and our money by having other pitch in. quote: Yes, I agree that the United States has a huge share of resources while other people starve. I also see the lack of balance. I also feel sorry for all the starving people, etc. That is NOT justification for taking away resources from America and giving it to other countries. Charities and aid organizations are around for that, NOT the US government. At no point should the United States, and thus it's citizens, be forced into giving up their quality of life for other countries. I never said take away resources. But fair trade is important. Developing nations need to have special consideration so they don't get raped in the free market. Growth and prosperity equal stability and development. That means less peace keeping and foreign aid. quote: Also, you need to realize that advancement takes resources. The United States has the infrastructure scientific advancement, and scientific advancements trickle down. By undermining America by making it accountable to the "world community" and redistributing resources, your focusing on the short term goal of stopping starvation in some third world country where the people will probably be killing each other next week, as opposed to finding a long term solution of ways to make enough food that no one will ever starve... Lots of countries have the infrastructure. Tell trickle down to Africa. They have the most AIDS patients anywhere. With democracy, economic growth, societal growth, birth rates fall. If we come together and assist this transformation we can control overpopulation. quote: Could you give an example or two of what your referring to? Any action in Iraq would be changing the status quo to get rid of a dictator that is a threat to all non-islamic states around the world (due to sales to Islamic terrorist groups). How about we give 3 billion annually to Israel to keep oppression up and running. The war in Vietnam. CONTELPRO Bombing Cambodia. Creating Bin Yahoo Creating Sadam Off the top of my head.... Status quo....world in fear. Arms building. Unilateral actions with lack of forethought. Systems that keep people from getting politically involved. Systems that incarcerate over two million citizens half of whom are nonviolent offenders.....all these things that do not have to be. This is a country for the people....only they have to remember that.... quote: I see it, it's just that it is much more valuable at the CURRENT TIME to keep the nation-state system. At some point in the future, when the world's philosophies, interests, and cultures are more similar, it would be beneficial for everyone to share the world and it's resources and for everyone to be accountable to some degree to everyone else. No problem here. National problems need national attention. Problems that can affect the entire world require global attention. quote: As it stands though, the United States is not like most other countries in the world. We have a constitution and government that is not oppressive, and the citizens of this country enjoy a large degree of freedom, and for the most part, luxury, because of it and its economic system. Any sort of "connectivity" with a "world community" notably takes away from that autonomy, and will hurt the United States due to diverging interests and philosophies. We are threatened by terrorism, we need to fight back. Other countries see the starving people and the innocents getting killed due to our attempts to eliminate terror and say we need to use other means. Those philosophies do not work together. Yes fight terror with terror. Brilliant. Studies indicate that a lack of political freedom coupled with minimal economic and social progress sets the stage for bomb toting terrorist/freedom fighters. And guess what the UN is all about: building democracy and lasting peace. We suffer from domestic terrorists that see something is wrong but don't understand how to fix it. They fight back. Then we lose lives and freedoms. Oppression is subjective. While most of us don't have to worry about men in black suits taking away family members away, we do have to worry about men in black suits stuffing there pockets with our money, laying off the workers that made it, building a climate of fear, and laughing to the bank. Further we have to look at our own free press. It is a business now. quote: I see that this country is based on the idea of freedom and human rights for its citizens, and when we act around the world we do our best to bring those ideas to those countries. This seems like it's going to become a new socialism debate. Could you please explain what ACTIONS you are ADVOCATING? We've been talking sort of broadly here, and it'd be nice to have something tangible We do our best.....some of our politicians. We should work as a global partner. We should build trust with our neighbors and allow democracy to lead the way. We should look to insuring our own institutions built for the people are not corporate owned and operated. We should be the leader in creating a time for humanity to grow. Realizing the benefits of democracy and social progress for all and how it will make this country a better place to live. Realize how we are but a piece of the greater whole and need to build along side with everyone else. We also have to remain vigilant in the face of danger. Be prepared to do our part....not force others to capitulate or face ruin. Unless all agree that is the only course. Off the top of my head. quote: I'm talking in most ways. Militarily, scientifically, economically. The United States has the greatest potential out of any country in the world, it's just that we are too busy worrying about everyone else to actually HELP the world through that power. Power is also unity. Peace brings prosperity. Power without thought leads to ruin. Jaquar: I will go to war if those are my orders. If that is the only way to peace so be it. However, I will speak my mind IAW with my freedoms granted under UCMJ. I will not attend political functions in uniform. Happy? Individual freedom is the core of democracy and human growth. Democracy is: 1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives. 2. A political or social unit that has such a government. 3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power. 4. Majority rule. 5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community We are in a global community. I say again ~ I believe individual freedom is the heart and soul of a democracy~. But I know even in your family you have rules that serve to let everyone get along and grow. [ 08-06-2002, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: Hell of a negotiator, in my opinion. Of course, keep in mind that Bruce Willis in The Fifth Element was a lot better... LOL! My favorite was Chris Tucker....bzzzz..bzzzzzzzzzz.. Rex I hope the stars pan out...but as far as I can tell that is a ways out yet. I would endorse more space programs...they lead to all kinds of great advancements.... quote: Exactly what do you mean by "being leaders" and we need to be "held to the same standard as others"? We already are leaders, it's just that no one wants to follow, and we can't change what's in our best interests because "everyone else doesn't like it". So what? If other countries want to try and stop us, go right ahead, but using the current world as an example, Iraq is a threat. America thinks it is, most Americans think it is, but we should NOT attack Iraq because other nations say it's wrong? America will be much safer and advance much quicker if it worries less about international opinion and more about protecting it's citizens and helping economy and scientific development. Americans know he is a threat but don't think house to house fighting for a executive vendetta is wise. You can go to CNN and cast your vote. Most Americans don't want to fight terrorists for the rest of their lives....it is becoming clear that action without thought ends with more problems. I watched the as a panel of experts rated the immediate threat of Iraq as low. At the same time it seems they believe that action now will be less costly then action later. HOWEVER, they agree that we HAVE the capacity to inspect for WMD with a high degree of success. We have a lot of options before we send in... well....me. War is not a game. For you it is...now....maybe one day you'll wise up. This planet has limits. We exceed our share while people starve. If you can't see that fine....you have a whole crew of people who will back you up. On the other hand I have mine. We can see the lack of balance. We feel the need to care. We would rather see some overpaid loser take a pay cut then watch a part of the world go to hell. America is losing the moral right to lead. With every covert op or overt op that takes away from people and tries to maintain the status quo. I do not want to see one privileged nation under God able to succeed at the cost of others. Leadership is getting others to accomplishing something. That something happens to be human development by many great leaders and thinkers. All of us. Even you. If you cannot see the interconnect ness of life then you are missing what others have...and I'm sorry for you. The moral right. This country was founded on morals that people have human rights by being human. Deal with it. quote: Exactly what part of the "rest of the world" will move on without us? The US is the most advanced and most powerful nation in the world in just about every way possible. I'd see us moving ahead and leaving the world behind. Then your very short sighted and can see no farther then your own needs. A condition that affects a lot here. It is too bad...one day you may realize how we all have the same needs and we can meet them for all. Amazing that you feel that we are the most advanced. While the founding principals of this nation were highly advanced for the time...time has moved forward. Yes we have gadgets by the score...if you can afford them. And we can wreck a county in unprecedented amount of time. This does not make a society advanced. This is dangerous in a place that is not.

Delta Force. Saw a brief on it.they have declassified some of the organization because of the high profile missions they have been on. Just to get to see the commander/CSM for consideration you have to complete a week long land nav course. You have to navigate from one point to the next...anywhere from 4 to 30? kilometers per day with multiple check points....you have to complete the course with 40-60 lbs? of gear and a rifle, plus you have to have all your gear when your done...of course you sleep when you get the chance in the dirt...or snow...or mud...time limits are not disclosed. If you pass that you have to do a few other things then you get assigned to a team. That is where I think the real evaluation starts. Anyway that was just the stuff they told us about in the brief. But the differences in these schools are pretty big.. Ranger they starve you and treat you like crap..and make you hump all over the place SF they treat you like a professional but have a lot of evals that dont have disclosed standards..they also say guys who pass Ranger school are in no way at an advantagein fact they say they have problems working in the way SF wants them to. Seals I have no idea. All these groups make you go for SERE? training..if in is not internal to the program. But I say Delta because it is a not about team work.it is about your ability to function effectively on the fringe, alone.

If memory serves Churchill also said Count on the Americans to do the right thing after all other options have been exhausted or something to that effectmade me chuckle anyway.

You might want to look at the Green Party and its goals. I looked at their web site briefly and was intrigued. I saw them as a force trying to mobilize in order to combat current systems of BS. I dunno gonna have to check it out more. I was looking at Libertarians but they don't believe in any kind of UN and that clearly shows a lack of long term thinking. But anyway, I got this bit from the UN development report. I think it has great insight and the last paragraph is more on target then anything I've heard from Mr. Bush. -------- Respect for human dignity implies commitment to creating conditions under which individuals can develop a sense of self-worth and security. True dignity comes with an assurance of one 's ability to rise to the challenges of the human situation. Such assurance is unlikely to be fostered in people who have to live with the threat of violence and injustice, with bad governance and instability or with poverty and disease. Eradicating these threats must be the aim of those who recognize the sanctity of human dignity and of those who strive to promote human development. Development as growth, advancement and the realization of potential depends on available resources -and no resource is more potent than people empowered by confidence in their value as human beings. The concept of human development is no longer new. But some analysts still consider its aspirations bold and daring -some might say overwhelming and foolhardy. The problems are innumerable, forever changing and forever the same -a complex, fluid spectrum of social, economic and political issues that is impossible to grasp entirely. That it defies delimitation is the core of the challenge posed by the task of human development. It demands constant effort and capacity for rethinking, flexibility and fast reactions. The process of human development calls for human resolve and ingenuity. Hopeless, helpless people stripped of their dignity are hardly capable of such activities. And so we return to the link between human development and human dignity. Human development encompasses all aspects of human existence. It is generally accepted that its scope includes political and social rights as well as economic ones -but the different rights are not always given the same weight. For example, some people still claim that humanitarian aid and economic assistance cannot wait for political and social progress. This insidious idea creates dissonance between complementary requirements. If the people that aid targets are not empowered, it cannot achieve more than a very limited, very short-term alleviation of problems rooted in long-standing social and political ills. After all, human development is not intended to produce impotent objects of charity. At this time when the world is preoccupied with the menace of terrorism, it is worth considering that people who feel deprived of control over their lives -necessary for a dignified life -are liable to search for fulfillment along the path of violence. Merely providing them with a certain material sufficiency is not enough to win them over to peace and unity. Their potential for human development has to be realized and their human dignity respected so that they can gain the skills and confidence to build a world strong and prosperous in harmonious diversity. Aung San Suu Kyi Winner of the Nobel Peace Prize,1991 Human development and human dignity

You seem to have it all figured out Dredd. However, I believe that the issues are complex and an isolationist attitude is exactly the wrong direction to move in. In a time where global participation in increasing, building fortress America is wrong answer. We have to take the front and be leaders. But we also have to be held to the same standard as others. I think if we isolate ourselves the world will move on without us and all of those negative effects you talked about will be felt because of inaction and circling the wagons. quote: I agree that the problems are linked, in that the world needs a democratic government wherein the people rule. But not to the extent of inflicting another county's beliefs on us. The United States is going nowhere fast, as it has its hands in too many cookie jars, and has been caught stealing from both us and others for far too long. I don't believe that a world organization should have to much say along those lines. However if we are talking ending sexism, international crime, government oppression, and starvation then I think this organization should have a say. But as far as say banning beer then that should be left to the nations to decide. quote: Short of civil war, I'm not sure how to correct the situation. Congress does what it wants, with little check or balance. I've not heard them ask one time if anything they were doing was okay -- they assume it is because what few people who actually vote said they were their representative (and can do no wrong seems to be their thinking.) I'm not sure either....I think a mighty step forward would be to get the money out of politics. quote: A divided front we have, focusing on internal and external problems that can be thought of as interlinked, but a lot of ouside countries have problems that are infecting our own. I'm not against world peace, but having it on a stable platform is preferred, and may be the only way to succeed. A healty body is more likely to survive dealing with outside agents, and the United States is quite sick with the measles.... Yeah....but stability is found through democracy and global stability will ultimately rest with global democracy. It's just convincing the haves that it really is in their best interest to participate fairly.

Interesting...I'll try it because I killed all the cookies and the program didn't even blink... You know that program gives reports (to da' boss man) on what you look at, how long, by name or group....kinda creepy to me...

quote: No, as long as we are working with the rest of the world, we are settimng ourselves up for failure. We are the ONLY true Republic on this earth, although the constitution is ignored so that really isn't true. THe rest of the world, EU, Australia, Canada, etc ad nauseum, are a bunch of socialist, superpower wannabes who will tear us down at the first opportunity. The UN, EU, and all the Rest can go screw themselves as far as I am concerned. THe only 2 countries with any trust at all, would be Israel and Turkey, the rest can just kiss our..... The world is becoming more democratic. (UN development report). I believe you may be accurate in your assessment on how the world feels about us. However we only have ourselves to blame. Were we to act like a partner rather then a policy maker, we might see those opinions change. quote: Apparently, you've never built a house. You start with a good foundation, add the framework, and put the roof on it. Then you can work on the inside, adding sheetrock, furnishings, etc. The United States is more than just a house -- it's a community of people that want to help others, but is currently on an unstable foundation. To correct this problem, we need to start by educating the parents about what the U.S. is all about. Freedom, justice, and above both of these, responsibility. If you want our houses to help other countries, we need to be able to do so without jeopardizing our own society. I worked construction before I joined the Army so yes I know about building a house. Of course I laid shingles....never messed with concrete. I agree we need to work on domestic issues. However, I am convinced that problems are linked. Our future lies with a world connected and only through working with other nations fairly are we to build a lasting peace. quote: This "Global Platform" you described is very much like what Hitler wanted to create, except his was an empire. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the United States has always been, and shall always be (until its eventual demise, as nothing outlasts the passage of time) a benign empire. A Replubic is what the Roman Empire had, and it was democratic up to the point where the Emperor said, "No." Well, Congress is saying "no" to democracy, bit by bit, year by year. Sorry but I don't believe in fascism. Benign? Tell that to the peasants we starve. This empire analogy is good. All fail in time. Empires don't last. quote: So, you want a One-World Government? That may occur, but with other demands in the world, terrorists and such may be the least of your problems. The votes of such (assuming democracy was the case) would mean that Islamic Jihad would have a voice in what happens to you. Israel might have an impact on how and when you pay taxes. Great Britain might be able to force you to bow before its king or queen. That is one major factor in terrorism. These people have no voice other than killing. Some are crazy, some want freedom. Compromise is how people live together. I believe no country can stand alone. Just as this country has a constitution and checks and balances, so to should any world organization. However, like you said we have a lot of work to do here. Currently I see democracy trying to come to terms with an economic system that is in conflict with freedom and liberty. If this country's government is to be a model for a world government, it becomes obvious the need to separate the world bank and IMF from being able to influence policy. That is one problem I see with our democracy. Politicians are leased and the media is owned and so is pushed to make a profit. Pathetic....truly pathetic. Maybe if we cleaned that area up we would be able to work more effectively on other issues. quote: Be very careful when you are selecting what type of world you think you want, as it may not be all you think it will be. We have freedoms in the U.S. that other nations do not enjoy, and losing them will be a forever thing.... I turn on the news and get embarrassed by what my government is doing. I read UN reports and statements and I see a group of intelligent people with vision and compassion that are try to usher in a new era of human development. At home they want to take my freedom because of policies that benefit the few and are put out by people who are bought and sold suffering from tunnel vision. I am not opposed to having Americans subject to be prosecution by an international war crimes tribunal. It might make some of these yahoo's take a moment to think about some of the things they do. quote: Education is the key I agree. [ 08-04-2002, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: We need to pull out of the U.N., away from OPEC, and away from anything which neutralizes our ability to function as a nation. This includes divided loyalties amoung immigrant/citizens who are spending more on their "homeland" than here. I ask you this: Because of all the "politically correct" garbage afloat in the national cesspool, please tell me, in 20 words or less, what exactly is the "American Culture?" The question includes the entire populace and any cultures they subscribe to... I believe that as long as we operate without working with the rest of the world we are setting ourselves up for failure. I believe that the problems facing us are not unique to the North American continent. If we do not look to realizing a global platform of democracy to take care of global problems any action we take will ultimately fail. Also how do you answer a question like that in 20 words or less?

quote: And exactly why do you like this? It didn't answer any questions at all, as a matter of fact it left me with more questions. That's the whole point...this entire situation is complicated. We need to think this one over. We the people. Not, we the executively managed, flag waving, righteous regulators. quote: THe fact is, Saddam is into the Palestinian thing up to his bushy eyebrows, and at the same time is doing his best to get hold of nuclear material to build a nuclear weapon. He's gotta go, one way or another, Saddam needs to meet his maker and quick. Before he lobs a nuke at Israel and the whole middle east becomes a field of radioactive green glass. Im not sure but I think any use of WMD on Israel is kind of a long shot even for this guy. Arab and Israeli are all mixed up over there I think.Ill check some maps. But I think it is clear (even to nut job) that if anyone starts shooting that crap around everyone in the region will be affected. That is not to say this guy needs those kinds of weapons.far from it. But the whole dire threat angle is not there yet. Yes he's a serious problem. No argument there. However I am concerned about the way we conduct our foreign policy and ultimate motives all around. We give sick F's like Saddam ammo by endorsing oppressive regimes and violating international laws. We have to walk the walk....bottom line. No one said doing the right thing is easy. True leaders are that because they lead from the front and by example. Iraq is being held together by this nut. You have three factions that want to be separate. You have other nations in the area that are moving to a more moderate position. If we go in and set up a Vichy (sp?) government it could be potentially devastating to our long term involvement in the region. We are screwing up in Afghanistan....phase one accomplished it's objective. Phase two is not going so hot...it's what we leave behind that really counts. Polo Step is probably going to be successful but five to ten years later we could still be paying the price for lack of foresight. I'm not saying there is nothing to be done but I do believe that we need to rethink our entire approach. I dont know about you, but I dont want to be fighting terrorism for the rest of my life. [ 08-02-2002, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

So long Alaska....heh heh....

Thanks, I'll look into it. Heh heh...the only thing around these parts to happen at the speed of lightning is trying to figure how to get out of this chicken $hit outfit Thanks go to my DA civilian battle buddies who all suffer from nicotine addiction or poor eating habits or both....well if you can't beat em'.....

Question SC. When I'm at work and I want to spend some time on something important , I try to get onto this board. They have a program "web sense" that blocks me. Your site comes up restricted as games. Now the funny thing is I can get onto something like Morrowind without a hassle.... I was just wondering if there is anything that can be done to curb this threat to the moral and welfare of our soldiers on Ft. Sill.....from the outside, that is, so as not to burden my already overworked civilian counter parts.

Good luck Dredd I'm sure you'll love your job. But I believe you should think about what Gray Fox said earlier. Anyway.... Yep there is a serious problem over there I just hope the answer we come up with doesn't make more problems. Polo Step? Where do they come up with a name like that? [ 08-01-2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/08/01/hagel.cnna/index.html I like this

Been out of the net sorry. quote: Would that 20 year old kid still do it if there was no money involved? I think so. The bombings are motivated by vengeance more than anything else. I think the money only has a marginal effect. I don't agree. Israel has been waging a war on these people for a long time. No need to get into why. They choke them economically and pat themselves on the back. Oops. Right after the "great success" of a bombing mission, their government is in disarray...talk about giving jobs etc. They know that this is one issue of primary concern. When you grind a population under your boot you had better be careful.....like us a few hundred years ago. Life and liberty are everywhere and if you beat a person they will only grow stronger. Israel is torn....they are starting to look like the forces that created them....dance with the devil....look into the abyss.... quote: Look, the Controlled Information Association, er, CIA, isn't in the habit of releasing unbleached intelligence reports. And, because of the Israeli/Muslim feud (note that word) over a piece of property, you really can't take anything they say at face value either. Yep. The truth of a given situation is tied to greater truths. I don't think anyone wants to collapse the house of BS just yet. quote: I forgot about Lothar, he seems to lean in the same direction as Menchise. I of course lean right of center, but just a little, I am a strict constitutionalist and therefore politics and the idiotic things our politicians do is important to me. You forget your history while you claim to cherish it. This county was founded on oppression and now we contribute....that kinda like father like son thing going on.... But thanks for thinking of me.... My bottom line is this: Our country was founded on the principals of liberty and democracy. We act in accordance with that on a limited scale. Everyone likes to sing the praises of our so called democracy when we are far from a place where THE PEOPLE govern themselves. If you cannot see the system wide interference of this objective then I bet you just change the channel. Business as usual needs to change. We are not a righteous force alone in the dark. Read the UN development report..I dare you. Why aren't we in Iraq right now? Because it is complicated and it will be bloody. I've heard it said that invasion plans leaked from the Pentagon were done so by American officers that realize this is not going to be easy. Their civilian counterparts just don't want to realize this...job security is a mother at that place eh? You talk of threats and lack of security when lack of thinking is the real issue. Lack of clear thought and understanding of a situation. But what the hell. It has got a lot of people this far right? Of course you could just turn to the channel that has the station logo in front of the American flag for some good hard investigative journalism. Or is that all of them?

Your missing out, itÔÇÖs a trip. All you need is a perfectly good chute to go with the plane....

Legalize. Make smart choices. Things in moderation. Crack is the same as shooting yourself in the head. Smoking a joint is far different. Stop demonizing it. It makes it attractive to kids and prevents proper strategies on how to fix it. Tear down the whole infrastructure that makes an international drug king pin and all the crime that goes with. If you don't think that these guys diversify your crazy. Stop wasting my money on a bunch of missions that don't even take place in my country. Stop wasting money on programs that cannot show an accurate success rate. I want that money for treatment centers and education for the people that actually generate the problem.