d8alus

Yeah, but if you wanna find the flames, just follow the links from those threads.

quote: That is the problem with most Christians that I run across, it isn't enough that what I believe makes me happy, IT HAS TO BE what they believe or nothing I agree...and last time I checked, it wasn't my choice to decide what you believe. In fact, that very reason is what turns most people off to discussing beliefs and the saddest part is that this kind of behavior is not what Christ intended. I'm perfectly content to let anyone believe what they want. If they ask me my beliefs, I'll tell them. If they ask me what I think of their beliefs, I'll tell them. But I won't be rude about it and I won't insult them for it, after all, that's un-Christian.

quote: Thus there is no such thing as free will, and should there be an all knowing and all powerful deity then it is directly responsible for every single event that happens, every bit of misery and joy, everything. Ok, let's work with that. Assume there is a God. Then everything you just typed and everything I type is a result of His control and we are merely puppets, right? Every time I scratch my head it's because He made me? Every game I play and enjoy is because He's making me do it? Ok, assume there's not a God. Then what? Everything we think, do, say, type, play, watch is just a chain-reaction result of the big bang? The whole universe and all it's elements are just snowballing and have since the beginning? quote: You can not prove the bible to be valid by using the information within the bible.I agree. quote: First of all, I don't doubt that some of the prophecies can be construed as correct. After all, as I understand it they are worded vaguely and are generally taken symbolically, which leaves an incredible amount of room open for real events to fall at least mostly into place given enough time. Like horoscopes? On both the last two points I agree completely. That's where personal experience comes in. It's hard for me to explain, especially now when I'm struggling with my own faith (for reasons unrelated to this thread). But I know it as truth. Not think, not believe, know. I don't want to sound pushy, but that's how I feel about my faith. Take it for what it's worth.

Hmm...I once asked my dad, "Why is the sky blue?" After several days, we were eating at a steakhouse and he answered me. He said, "Why, why is a question man has pondered for centuries. It leads us to a constant struggle for meaning...(I'll save you the whole 20 minute dissertation.) Then, 'is the sky blue?' Yes, Adam, it is." Yep, good ole dad.

Hey! Watch those sudden jokes!!! I almost spit coke all over my screen!!!

quote: Better yet, prove that ANY of them were correct! yeah, well, I'm too lazy for that... Seriously, I wouldn't know where to begin to look. I also admit that a group of people causing the prophecy to come true would make for a great control element. So what happens when the people that fulfill the prophecy are the ones that don't believe it and don't want it to happen?

My dad is a joke. He's a master of misquotes. And the really sad part is, he does it unintentionally. I think the best one so far is when he tried to say, "You don't have a horse in this race." It came out, "You don't have a dog in this horse." No kidding.

Here's my challenge to you Jaguar, get a bible and research the prophecies of the old testament, the prophecies that Christ made and the book of Revelations. Then research history from the time period of the old testament until today and prove to us that all the prophecies were wrong.

Well, that depends on whether or not you accept the bible as fact or fiction. It is very hard to explain the bible to someone that doesn't believe a word of it. One of my old roommates was atheist, boy did we have some fun conversations.

Luck and random occurance are totally seperate entities (for lack of a better word). A random occurance is just that, random. Luck on the other hand would alter that random occurance to either benefit (good luck) or hurt (bad luck) the person or people involved. That's like saying that every time you flip a coin, God directs the outcome. He doesn't have to, He set physics in place for a reason. And despite what my brother will tell you when he's playing a game, physics do not arbitrarily change for people. As for Jaguar's post, if you look at it historically, especially around the time of the Crusades and exploration of the new world, then yes, the Catholic Church used their religion as a facade to impose their power on the rest of the world. Why do you think the 'Protestant Reformation' occured? Anyone remember 'White man's burden'? To go back even further, what about the Pharisees? Does that mean that is what is intended in Christianity? No. quote:Well, it's hard to argue with faith, not much you can say will change it (kind of like a brick wall in that respect, but I shan't go there). And I'm stubborn to boot!

And John himself denied being Elijah. (now I know I'm tired, I forget everything I wanna say...I think it's bedtime.)

Well, if you believe the old testament, Elijah technically never died...he just went to Heaven. (weak I know but I don't wanna research anymore tonight)

quote: Well Kiran, I think it's demonstrable that the bible (especially the old testament) is nothing I would call a remotely accurate document. I don't means simply from the perspective that I'm an atheist, but rather that it is unlikely that any story could survive everything it went though with anything but the core truth intact (if that), and in the process it would be distended way out of proportion. This leads me to wonder how you can believe what can so easily be shown as misinformation? That's where faith kicks in. I've had a lot of personal experiences that point to a God. I've had more that lead me to believe that the God of the Bible is that God. So, either God exists and is the God of Jacob and Abraham, or I'm extremely lucky. And since I don't believe in luck... As I've said....IF you believe in God, and IF you believe He is all-powerful, how can you possibly believe that He wouldn't ensure that His word stayed intact. Again, that's only if you believe to begin with. Since you are an atheist...there's not much I can do to prove otherwise. There's more to Christianity than reading and believing the bible.

Feel free to jump in, Jags, just keep the gloves on. I'm not gonna get upset if you try to disprove my faith. I spent 4 years in the infantry as an outspoken Christian...I've pretty much heard it all.

I beg your pardon? The only thing I can remotely think of is Adam. But that's not reincarnation that's analogy. Just as Adam was the first man, Christ was the first man to enter the kingdom of heaven under the new covenant.

Hygiene is easier with circumcision.

quote: Christ is in the New Testament, which verifies the prophecies of His coming. The New Testament is not history, but fact. The New Testament has been been declared sacreligious by the Jews, who are its intended people. They follow only the Old Testament. I forsake them for this, and can safely (as a Gentile) ignore the precepts (the Old Testament) they have set. I follow the Gospel, or Good News, of Christ, not the old news of the Old Testament. If God said it or did it, I abide. Otherwise, you can take Mosaic law (which I will not follow, and neither will the current Jews) and find something to do with it. That's interesting... quote: Matthew 5 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." As for reincarnation and John the Baptist, I assume you are refering to Elijah... quote: 2 Kings 2 1 Now when the LORD was about to take Eli'jah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Eli'jah and Eli'sha were on their way from Gilgal. 2 And Eli'jah said to Eli'sha, "Tarry here, I pray you; for the LORD has sent me as far as Bethel." But Eli'sha said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So they went down to Bethel. 3 And the sons of the prophets who were in Bethel came out to Eli'sha, and said to him, "Do you know that today the LORD will take away your master from over you?" And he said, "Yes, I know it; hold your peace." 4 Eli'jah said to him, "Eli'sha, tarry here, I pray you; for the LORD has sent me to Jericho." But he said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So they came to Jericho. 5 The sons of the prophets who were at Jericho drew near to Eli'sha, and said to him, "Do you know that today the LORD will take away your master from over you?" And he answered, "Yes, I know it; hold your peace." 6 Then Eli'jah said to him, "Tarry here, I pray you; for the LORD has sent me to the Jordan." But he said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So the two of them went on. 7 Fifty men of the sons of the prophets also went, and stood at some distance from them, as they both were standing by the Jordan. 8 Then Eli'jah took his mantle, and rolled it up, and struck the water, and the water was parted to the one side and to the other, till the two of them could go over on dry ground. 9 When they had crossed, Eli'jah said to Eli'sha, "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you." And Eli'sha said, "I pray you, let me inherit a double share of your spirit." 10 And he said, "You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if you do not see me, it shall not be so." 11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli'jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Malachi 4 5 "Behold, I will send you Eli'jah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes." Matthew 11 10 This is he of whom it is written, 'Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.' 11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and men of violence take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John; 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Eli'jah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 17 1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli'jah, talking with him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli'jah." 5 He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him." 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces, and were filled with awe. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, "Rise, and have no fear." 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. 9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead." 10 And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Eli'jah must come?" 11 He replied, "Eli'jah does come, and he is to restore all things; 12 but I tell you that Eli'jah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist. John 1 19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20 He confessed, he did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No." 22 They said to him then, "Who are you? Let us have an answer for those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?" 23 He said, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way of the Lord,' as the prophet Isaiah said." Luke 1 13 But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zechari'ah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth; 15 for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 16 And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God, 17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Eli'jah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared." John was not the literal reincarnation of Elijah, he was a prophet of the same power and function of Elijah. [ 12-11-2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Kiran ]

So you say that you believe in God, believe that He made everything, but don't believe that the bible, which He calls His word, is true? I'm confused. Which begs the question, do you believe that Christ was who he said he was and that he spoke the truth always? What reference to reincarnation?

Man I gotta see that one!! Wait, that's a joke, huh?

quote: Media organisations fear the ruling could unleash a flood of litigation around the world and will force them to review the content of their internet sites. Accountability?! Dear God, the horror! I will say this, tho. The law of the land of the offender not the offendee should be the one used.

So, when the seething hatred wears off, explain what it did. My bro says that xp home has security issues but that pro was better. Sooo. ***Need more input, Stephanie.***

You and a group of joes see an officer coming, so you spread out single file with about 10 feet or so between you. Well, you get the picture Of course that works both ways. I was going to eat lunch and went to BK...which was where all the brand new butter-bars decided to go after OCS graduation. They were leaving, I was coming in.

quote: No officers on here? C'mon, I want someone tell me what it's like being an officer in the Air Force, or any other branch.... Remember that really wierd guy in school that always smelled funny and no one wanted to be around? Now think of him as your boss.

Blair Witch in space?

quote: From Webster's Dictionary: Faith: n. trust, confidence; complete acceptance of a truth which cannot be demonstrated or proved by the process of logical thought; the virtue by which a Chtistian believes in the revealed truths of God That being said, the Bible is an all or nothing belief. You can't just believe part of it. Also, if you believe it, you have to accept that an all powerful creator would not let His word be ruined by generations of paraphrasing. Yes, it is just an account of Israel. More to the point, it is just an account of the lineage of Christ. However, if Adam and eve lived 900+ years and had around 100 kids that lived 900+ years and had 100 kids, etc. Don't you think the world would fill up pretty quickly? I can say that I have never heard a logical explanation for the things in the Bible. I've never heard a logical refutal, either. Don't know if I'll get around to researching today, gotta take my dog to the vet, but I'll try.