John Prezioso

FACT: THREE terrorist camps were found in Iraq, one being a hijacker school intended for the purpose of training hijackers to carry out attacks IDENTICAL to the 9/11 attacks. FACT: No less than 3 internationally wanted terrorists were knowingly harbored, concealed, and treated like kings by Saddam. FACT: Al-Zarqawi was allowed into Baghdad and harbored upon his flight from Afghanisatn. FACT: Saddam has offered cash rewards to families of Palestinian terrorists for suicide attacks, the ONLY world leader to do so. FACT: The terrorist resposible for the first WTC attack in 92 was Iraqi.

quote:Please point out exactly where we are mandated by the United States Constitution to topple other countries who aren't doing what we like. Yet another misrepresentation. The constitution does not lay out an all inclusive list of "good" reasons for war. Congress authorized the use of force as per the Constitution. Not the use of harsh language, the use of FORCE!!!!! The Commander in Chief constitutionally did as he saw fit given that power. LEGISLATIVE POWERS "...Clause 11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; Clause 12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; Clause 13: To provide and maintain a Navy; Clause 14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;..." EXECUTIVE POWERS "...Clause 1: The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment..."

quote:It's the sad fact of things. What scare's me more is that most people won't even consider the primary reason we went in, even though Iraq did have training camp's and all the material's required to train terrorists, they also constantly violated UN sanctions. That right here was a red flag Not only that, the Oil for Food scandal (which should've gotten the UN disbanded and all it's employee's responsible thrown in jail) again, no one bothered to stop that, no countries bothered to get involved... Excellent post Kalshion. Of course, it will fall on deaf ears as usual. Silk- quote: Plus you know your argument is baseless when you have to nitpick at one of the smaller points I made while ignoring the plethora of points and facts I listed.I just picked ONE MORE area where you are deliberately misrepresenting the truth to enforce your own agenda. Your facts are not facts. Sell them as such all you want, but they are no more fact than what you dismiss as "tabloid rubbish". Ironic, that. quote: For every "Iraqis have more clean water" story you can throw up, there are 30,000 Iraqis who will miss out on weddings, birthing of children, growing up, or various other things that they would have experienced, even under Saddam. And up to 400,000 will also not experience any of it because of Saddam that you dismiss as "neglible", I might add.

quote: The lives of Iraqis under Saddam Hussein prior to our invasion was not a Constitutional concern. And when compared to other humanitarian crisises around the world - was negligible. Incorrect. http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html

I've come to the same realization. The horse is dead. Time to move on.

"...CNS enlisted its own cast of expertsÔÇöa former weapons inspector with the UN Special Commission (UNSCOM), a retired CIA counterterrorism official with experience in Iraq, and a former Clinton advisor on IraqÔÇöto review the documents prior to publication. CNS reporter Scott Wheeler received the data from an unnamed "senior government official" who is not a political appointee. The source said the documents have not been made public because Bush administration officials have "thousands and thousands" of similar documents waiting to be translated and "it is unlikely they even know this exists." Former Clinton advisor Laurie Mylroie, who taught at Harvard and the U.S. Naval College and authored two books on Iraq under Saddam Hussein, told CNS the find represents "the most complete set of documents relating Iraq to terrorism, including Islamic terrorism." Bruce Tefft, the retired CIA official, described the documents as "accurate." He cited as particularly significant the Iraq link to al-Jihad al Tajdeed. Tajdeed is allied with Mr. al-Zarqawi. Its website currently posts Mr. al-Zarqawi's speeches, messages, and videosÔÇöincluding images portraying the Jordanian terrorist actively participating in the beheading of American Nicholas Berg and, just last month, the beheading of U.S. engineer Eugene Armstrong. At 37, Mr. al-Zarqawi is considered the main instigator behind suicide bombings, assassination attempts, and beheadings in Iraq. The connections "are too close to be accidental," Mr. Tefft told CNS, suggesting "one of the first operational contacts between an al-Qaeda group and Iraq." Mr. al-Zarqawi is often portrayed as a lone ranger, a cult figure running a nascent uprising in response to so-called U.S. imperialism. Yet these latest documents, along with other emerging reports, reveal Mr. al-Zarqawi's "authority stemmed from specific instructions and guidance" received from Osama bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders. According to terror expert Yossef Bodansky in his new book, The Secret History of the Iraq War, intelligence data shows Mr. al-Zarqawi entered northern Iraq from Iran shortly before the war to oversee a sophisticated guerrilla-war plan crafted in conjunction with Iraqi intelligence agents and Saddam himself. In addition to the terror-group connections, several pages of the leaked documents also demonstrate that Saddam possessed mustard gas and anthrax, both considered weapons of mass destruction. They describe Iraq's purchase of five kilograms of mustard gas in August 2000 and three vials of malignant pustule, a term for anthrax, the following monthÔÇöall at a time when Saddam prohibited UN weapons inspectors from working in Iraq. The purchase orders include gas masks, filters, sterilization, and decontamination equipment..." http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/display...cle.cfm?id=9762

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...04/696twoqc.asp No 1 - On March 28, 1992, the Iraqi Intelligence Service compiled a 20-page list of terrorists the regime considered intelligence assets. Atop each page was the designation "Top Secret." On page 14 of that list is Osama bin Laden. The Iraqi Intelligence document reports that bin Laden "is in good relationship with our section in Syria." The document has been vetted and authenticated by the Defense Intelligence Agency. The existence of the document was first reported on CBS's 60 Minutes. It has been widely ignored. No 2 - Saddam Hussein hosted regular conferences for terrorists in Baghdad throughout the 1990s. Mark Fineman, a reporter for the Los Angeles Times, reported on one such gathering in an article published January 26, 1993. "There are delegates from the most committed Islamic organizations on Earth," he wrote. "Afghan mujahideen (holy warriors), Palestinian militants, Sudanese fundamentalists, the Islamic Brotherhood and Pakistan's Party of Islam." One speaker praised "the mujahid Saddam Hussein, who is leading this nation against the nonbelievers. Everyone has a task to do, which is to go against the American state." No 3 - Abdul Rahman Yasin is an Iraqi who mixed the chemicals for the bomb used in the first World Trade Center attack on February 26, 1993. We know this because he has confessed--twice to the FBI and once on national television in the United States. He fled to Iraq on March 5,1993, with the help of an Iraqi Intelligence operative working under cover in the Iraqi Embassy in Amman, Jordan. A reporter for Newsweek interviewed Yasin's neighbors in Baghdad who reported that he was living freely and "working for the government." U.S. soldiers uncovered Iraqi government documents in postwar Iraq that confirm this. The documents show Yasin was given both safe haven and financing by the Iraqi regime until the eve of the war in Iraq. No. 4 - Later that same month--March 1993--Wali al Ghazali was approached by an Iraqi Intelligence officer named Abdel Hussein. Ghazali, a male nurse from Najaf, met another IIS agent named Abu Mrouwah who gave him an urgent mission: assassinate former President George H.W. Bush on his upcoming trip to Kuwait. On April 14, Kuwaiti police found Ghazali and other Iraqi Intelligence assets with two hundred pounds of explosives in a Toyota Landcruiser. Ghazali, the would-be assassin, told a Kuwait court that he had "been pushed by people who had no mercy." He said: "I fear the Iraqi regime, the Iraqi regime pushed me." No 5 - According to numerous press reports, the deputy director of Iraqi Intelligence, Faruq Hijazi, met face-to-face with Osama bin Laden in 1994. Bin Laden asked for anti-ship mines and al Qaeda training camps in Iraq. There is no indication that Iraq made good on his requests. No 6 - That same year, according to internal Iraqi Intelligence documents authenticated by the U.S. intelligence community and reported in the June 25, 2004, New York Times, a Sudanese government official met with Uday Hussein and the director of Iraqi Intelligence to facilitate the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. No 7 - According to the New York Times, the same Iraqi Intelligence document said that bin Laden earlier "had some reservations about being labeled an Iraqi operative" and that "presidential approval" had been granted to the Iraqi Intelligence service to meet with him. Bin Laden "also requested join operations against foreign forces" in Saudi Arabia. At bin Laden's request, Saddam Hussein also agreed to broadcast on Iraqi television sermons of an anti-Saudi cleric. No 8 - The Clinton administration cited an "understanding" between Iraq and al Qaeda in its 1998 indictment of Osama bin Laden. "Al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq." No 9 - The 9/11 Commission reports that Iraq and al Qaeda had a series of "friendly contacts" that did not appear to have developed into a "collaborative operations relationship." The final report provides details of meetings between senior Iraqi Intelligence officials and al Qaeda terrorists throughout the spring and summer of 1998 and indicates that "Iraqi official offered bin Laden a safe haven in Iraq." No 10 - The offer of asylum was also included in the Senate Intelligence Committee's unanimous, bipartisan review of prewar intelligence. From p. 335 of the Senate report: "A [CIA Counterterrorism Center] operational summary from April 13, 1999, notes four other intelligence reports mentioning Saddam Hussein's "standing offer of safe haven to Osama bin Laden." No 11 - This, from p. 316 of the Senate Intelligence Committee report: "From 1996 to 2003, the [iraqi Intelligence Service] focused its terrorist activities on western interests, particularly against the U.S. and Israel. The CIA summarized nearly 50 intelligence reports as examples, using language directly from the intelligence reports. Ten intelligence reports, from multiple sources, indicated IIS 'casing' operations against Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty in Prague began in 1998 and continued into early 2003. The CIA assessed, based on the Prague casings and a variety of other reporting, that throughout 2002 the IIS was becoming increasingly aggressive in planning attacks against U.S. interests." No 12 - Page 331 of the Senate report: "Twelve reports received [redacted] from sources that the CIA described as having varying reliability, cited Iraq or Iraqi national involvement in al Qaeda's CBW [chemical and biological weapons] efforts." No 13 - Abu Musab al Zarqawi traveled to Iraq in May 2002. He lived in Baghdad with the knowledge--and perhaps sponsorship--of the Iraqi regime. A passage from p. 337 of the Senate Intelligence Committee report cites a CIA report called Iraqi Support for Terrorism: "A variety of reporting indicates that senior al Qaeda terrorist planner al Zarqawi was in Baghdad [redacted]. A foreign government service asserted that the IIS knew where al Zarqawi was located despite Baghdad's claims it could not find him." More, from p. 338: "Al Zarqawi and his network were operating both in Baghdad and in the Kurdish-controlled region of Iraq. The HUMINT reporting indicated that the Iraqi regime certainly knew that al Zarqawi was in Baghdad because a foreign government service gave that information to Iraq." No 14 - More recently, Hudayfa Azzam, the son of bin Laden's longtime mentor Abdullah Azzam, told Agence France Presse that the Iraqi regime worked closely with al Qaeda in Iraq before the war. "Saddam Hussein's regime welcomed them with open arms and young al Qaeda members entered Iraq in large numbers, setting up an organization to confront the occupation," he said in an interview published August 29, 2004. Azzam added that al Qaeda fighters "infiltrated into Iraq with the help of Kurdish mujahideen from Afghanistan, across mountains in Iran" and that once they arrived, Saddam "strictly and directly" controlled their activities.

"...According to the State Department's May 21, 2002 "Patterns of Global Terrorism," the Abu Nidal Organization, the Arab Liberation Front, Hamas, the Kurdistan Worker's party, the Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization and the Palestinian Liberation Front all operated offices or bases in Hussein's Iraq. Hussein's hospitality towards these mass murderers placed him in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687, which prohibited him from giving safe harbor to or otherwise supporting terrorists. Coalition forces have found alive and well key terrorists who enjoyed Hussein's hospitality. Among them was Abu Abbas, mastermind of the October 1985 Achille Lauro hijacking and murder of Leon Klinghoffer, a 69-year-old Manhattan retiree who Abbas's men rolled, wheelchair and all, into the Mediterranean. Khala Khadr al-Salahat, accused of designing the bomb that destroyed Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in December 1988 (259 killed on board, 11 dead on the ground), also lived in Baathist Iraq. Before fatally shooting himself four times in the head on August 16, 2002, as Baghdad claimed, Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidal had resided in Iraq since 1999. As the AP's Sameer N. Yacoub reported on August 21, 2002, the Beirut office of the Abu Nidal Organization said he entered Iraq "with the full knowledge and preparations of the Iraqi authorities." Nidal's attacks in 20 countries killed at least 275 people and wounded some 625 others. Among other atrocities, ANO henchmen bombed a TWA airliner over the Aegean Sea in 1974, killing all 88 people on board. Coalition troops destroyed at least three terrorist training camps including a base near Baghdad called Salman Pak. It featured a passenger-jet fuselage where numerous Iraqi defectors reported that foreign terrorists were instructed how to hijack airliners with utensils. (The Bush administration should bus a few dozen foreign correspondents and their camera crews from the bar of Baghdad's Palestine Hotel to Salman Pak for a guided tour. Network news footage of that ought to open a few eyes.)..." Taken from an article by Deroy Murdock, National Review.

quote: I'm just saying that if we have humanitarian motivations - why aren't we going after the bigger crisis? You've never heard me proclaim humanitarian causes in Iraq. In my view, that would be disingenuous, as I know the main goal was eradication of terrorism and the support for terrorism in Iraq. There have been amazingly positive humanitarian advances (which I'm sure you probabaly recognize, but I understand this is not the point) but they were not the main reason. What the Bush administration says about that is politics, not reality. But claiming that the invasion was injustified when your reasoning for the injustice is what was discovered AFTER the invasion is quite a paradox. I don't really want to get into it again, but most people I know, a lot of whom don't support the Iraq war, recognize that Iraq had ties to terrorism. They, like you, question the REAL motives of choosing Iraq over Iran or Syria, yet the recognize what you will not.

quote: besides the fact that a wealth of archeological evidence points out that science contradicts many assertions found in the Bible, not on the level of these event's existence, but at the TIME they occurred (what changes quite a lot of things...), it is obvious that negociations between populations who believe that a given land pertain to them by divine will is extremely difficult. Nomad, It wasn't the (main) point of your post (which was very good, though I think you were a tad hard on Jag), but don't miss this excellent post by Ben Zwycky to your assertion in 2) http://www.3000ad.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?u...0066;p=2#000072 edit: I see that you saw it. Quite informative.

quote:Last time I checked, the office of the President wasn't about mandate, it's about service to the country Agreed. But any president is going to take re-election as a message from the people to keep it up, whether he's right or not in this interpretation. quote:My political persuasion?? What would that be Prez? The persuasion you have illustrated here - you don't like Bush policy, believe the Iraq war was wrong, and that PNAC is a real threat. Am I misrepresenting anything? Correct me if I am at all mistaken.

quote:How's your hebrew Prez ? Perfectly horrible! quote:Like: Effie Etam or Moshe Feiglin or Paul Eidelberg. You know somebody that wears a kippah more than once a year... I'll have to defer to you on this - I am just an admirer of him.

quote:Not sure where you are going with this, but you just described the President's role as if this were a Totalitarian society. He is saying that those of your political persuasion need to understand that the majority of voting Americans did not agree with you when it counted, i.e. election day. He was elected by a clear majority of the people, now he is doing his job as he sees fit.

quote: Your steadfast refusal to give any creedance to $ilks arguments is just making you look foolish. Silk's theories are just that -theories. And in my opinion not all very well-founded at that. Contrary to your baseless accusations, I have indeed pointed out where I thought Silk's arguments have some merit. I can respect a well thought-out argument without necessarily agreeing with it. I highly doubt having my own opinion makes me look foolish to anyone except those who HAVE to have everyone agree with them. And I have no use for people like that anyway, so what do I care HOW they regard me?

quote: The point about PNAC is not so much one of mass conspiracy but one that should certainly arouse suspicion in just about anyone's mind. I am not really a guy pre-disposed to suspicion, but if the PNAC charter makes you uncomfortable, that's one thing. To say unequivocally that it is what is driving what is going on in Iraq is simply wild conjecture, and another thing entirely. Like I have said before, the PNAC ideals are not all that radical to me really. Nowhere in there is a provision for forceful implementation, however. If the PNAC ideals were being used as the cornerstone for expansion through agression, I would certainly rail against it. But There is nothing to indicate whatsoever that this is what is going on.

It is comforting to me to know that I could always go to live in Israel if the "American Experiment" turned out to be a dud! I visted Haifa Israel in '96 and I LOVED it. The people were friendly, proud, and patriotic. What a great country.

quote:Millions were dying of starvation in Darfur Comparing apples to oranges. No similarities at all.

I am a big Netanyahu admirer, myself. How about you?

I have no doubt Israel will do what needs to be done. Talk about a hard-edged, tough people - these people have stared annihilation in the face since the 1943 and haven't even blinked.

quote:Why is this Israel's problem and/or responsibility ? Becaues they in all likelihood would be the first target of an Iranian nuclear bomb. Don't you remember during the first Gulf War? Israel did nothing while the Allies attacked Iraqi-held Kuwait. yet practically ALL of the launched scuds targeted Israel. Their very existence offends the radical Muslim regimes. quote: Let's be honest, we're not concerned with Israel being nuked, what we're concerned with is that the Mullahs develop atomic weapons and sell them to anybody on the planet with a couple million in spare change. I do care that my Jewish brethren would be wiped off the earth. But your scenario is a frightening one, no doubt.

LOL! I think that's an understatement! You kind of remind me of my Aunt Rosie- she's a 4 foot tall 88 year old Sicilian who is a fireball on wheels! Talks a mile a minute, too! Hell, I'm pretty sure your wrong about the future... and the present to! Anyway, for the record there are NO hard feelings on my part, Silk. Later!

I'm not perpetrating a lie, my friend. It's like a murder trial. Sure an eyewitness is always preferred, but failing that, you go on beyond a reasonable doubt. It is an imperfect solution in an imperfect system, but we do what we can with what we have. Why are you so quick to dismiss information that supports what most people already know about Saddam? Just because it isn't 100% cut and dried fact?

No just the opposite. I'll tell you what. For every OFFICIAL item you post that PNAC's policy is what was implemented here, I'll post one OFFICIAL item that shows Iraq's ties to terrorism. You want to live in a world of certainties and absolutes, Silk. And while that would be nice, sometimes VERY important decisions need to made on imperferct data and less than conclusive evidence. But condidering Hussein's history AND the amount of evidence that SUGGESTS, or POINTS TO Saddam's terrorist ties, most people not looking for a reason to find fault in the decision to go to war accept that the evidence was overwhelming. I certainly find it so.

quote:Things fall apart when your sources read "alleged ties" and "reportedly" I'd like government sources (this was Bush's claim) that list solid links. Under other circumstances, I would agree with you. But these connections are no more ephemeral than the ties you make between PNAC and the plot for American expansionism through force. quote:I'd like government sources (this was Bush's claim) that list solid links. I regret to say that I am not in fact privy to high level intelligence the president has access to!

Fair enough. But I ask you, what is wrong with a conservative news source? Their certainly no shortage of liberal ones!