Ruminations about war past or present

LostInSpace · May 11, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by street:

"And, if there be NO GOD, NO AFTERLIFE, and NOTHING worth dying for....? do you honestly believe, the united states would exist today, if the founding fathers were not willing to die for what they believe? Again a double standard in philosophy is quite apparent."

Thanks for bringing the revolutionary war up it will make for a nice parallel.

Anyway, I did not say there was nothing worth dying for just particular suspect ideologies one in which claims that there is a benevolent God and afterlife awaiting them if they blow up as many people themselves included. Do you agree? If you donÔÇÖt, then you are also saying that the TerroristsÔÇÖ and even HitlerÔÇÖsÔÇÖ ideology has/had as much legitimacy as our founding fathers. ÔÇØWe hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..ÔÇØ IÔÇÖd cut the Creator part out but the rest is of sound principle. Sure you may say that this is just my opinion and youÔÇÖd be right but even I as dumb as I am know good things and not so good things when I see them in other words if it walks like and talks like a duck itÔÇÖs a duck.

Anyway about the revolution, King George III and his ilk were putting the tax thumbscrews (among many issues) to everyone and bleeding the Americans dry of a decent way of life and standard of living. No higher purpose than the fight for a way of life they came to this new country to obtain and had it being ripped away from them by King George III. We owe much to our allies in this war, namely the French and American Indians (the ones that fought with the Americans). However, it was mostly the late involvement by the French that we are who we are today because of them for it was only because of the French involvement into our war that we were able to defeat Cornwallis at Yorktown. And donÔÇÖt think for one second that every American was in favor of this war either. These people were called Loyalists because they wanted to remain subject to the English. Starting to get the picture yet? No well let me break this down for you.

1: Tyranny under Saddam Hussein (Tyranny under King George III)

2: Economic and Political hardship under the Saddam regime (again King George III)

3: ÔÇ£In American history, the Loyalists, or Tories, were the men and women who refused

to renounce allegiance to the British crown after July 1776; they demonstrated that the American Revolution was a civil war as well as a quest for independence. Approximately 500,000 persons, 20 percent of the white population, actively opposed independence; probably a like number were passive Loyalists. There were Loyalists in every colony, but they were most numerous in the Mid-Atlantic states and in the South.ÔÇØ

Much like we see today in Iraq. There are just those who wanted to keep Saddam and his policies in power for one reason or another. The majority of the population wanted him gone but unlike the early Americans they had to contend with very power weapons and because Saddam controlled the media we just donÔÇÖt know what kind of home grown resistance there was. Saddam didnÔÇÖt have a bunch of doppelgangers running around for nothing. So like the French did for us we did for the silent majority in Iraq. Sure we have our motives but so did the French with us. Would you say that the French should not have gotten involved because of their less than shiny motives in aiding those that wanted to break from England and remove the Tyranny imposed by King George III?

And in the end England and America are the best of friends. We can all hope the same goes this way between us and Iraq and wish them a full and peacful prosperity now that Saddam is gone.

[ 05-11-2004, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: LostInSpace ]

street228 · May 11, 2004

Lost, I see your anology, and I can absolutly relate to the idea of legitamacy it holds; however, I do not agree with some of the primise on which it is built.

If this were the TRUE primise for our actions within the IRAQI country, there would have been no need for the long list of lies concerning our initial involvement. The connection with 9/11 would not have been needed to instigate the move. All of the propaganda concerning 9/11,Al Queda, WMD, would not have been necessary.

On another front: If there were such a LARGE silent majority within its borders. Wouldnt there be a much Larger silent majority in Korea, Red China, Russia, and ANY other country, which is not in accord with our way of thinking? I say: Possibly, but not likely.

We, as human beings, have a tendency to adhere to that which are aquainted with. Especially if it is something we have been subjected to,from birth.

The COLONIES, were from a different perspective, concerning ENGLAND. The colonist fled to the NEW World to ESCAPE. They Enjoyed many years, of freedom, with little outside influence from england. The voyages took too long across the atlantic. The excessive taxation, was a mere hinderence, where as they had to prepare to survive throughout the coming winters.

It was more: the PRINCIPLE, that ENGLAND, was once again establishing its hold, along with its insatiable desire to use the ideals of the INQUISITION to limit religeous freedoms and the use of SOLDIERS to enforce their ideals upon the colonist, which contributed most toward the revolt.

To hold to a moral ideology of promoting freedom, is an honorable thing. It is abhorent to take such an honorable ideal, and misuse its purpose.

Do you really feel, Our Ideals are so GRAND to those who have no idea, what they entail? If we were to tell EVERYONE in CHINA,that we are going to give them our form of FREEDOM, do you think the MAJORITY would want it? I think not.

Our ideals are good for us, but they conflict with the fundemental foundation which other populations have based their entire way of life, and thinking. And to enforce such on others would be contrary to the foundation which our ideals are built.

If Our perspective is so GRAND, and our ideals, standards, and way of life is so infallable, WHY must we fight to promote it. Wouldnt every individual on the planet say yea?

We are OBLIGATED by our ideals of freedom and democracy, to help those who request our assitance in achieving it. It is not logical to assume the majority of any horrible dictatorship is wanting our form of democracy.

I would assert that the MAJORITY of the IRAQI were content within their form of government. The dissadents to the iraqi regieme were welcome to come into the united states, to flee their oppressive government.As many did throughout the years. Is this not WHY we have an open border policy to ANY who choose freedom?

I do not understand, where the AMERICAN IDEAL to promote freedom, has gotten confused with the TYRANNY of AMERICANS conquoring and holding another country under military rule.

coming to the aid of a country(as we did with kewait) is one thing entirely. INVASION and Conquoring another country on false pretense, is quite another.

[ 05-11-2004, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: street ]

Wolferz · May 12, 2004

Sreet,

That was quite a mouthful.

Perhaps it should be broken down to it's simplest form; The one we learned in PLDC, and were encouraged to practice at all times.

"LEAD BY EXAMPLE"

You can't convince others to practice your ideals unless you practice them yourself.

I'm sure that, as an officer in the Texas Air National Guard, GWB "was" acquainted with the above phrase, but, somewhere along the line, he has cast that ideal aside, and in my eyes, has circumvented and perverted the very meaning of the word freedom as described in The Constitution and The Bill of Rights.

I would savor the opportunity to sit face to face with the man and ask him WTF? is your defliction???

But, I don't have to do that, because I know what his problem is and it's not a problem he, and many other people, would wish to make public.

Immediately following the 9/11 invasion, when GWB made his speech about the axis of evil, I nearly soiled myself laughing.

To give you an example of the fear that the current administration is spreading in our country; I became disabled by a stroke in November of 2001. I applied for Social Security disability. My application was summarily denied which forced me to retain an attorney and appeal the decision. One year later I finally get a hearing, which was decided in my favor and my application for the benefits I have been contributing to all my working life was finally approved.

My significant other is a Worrier by nature and the other evening she asked me to be careful with my postings on this board.

I said "WOT"!!!! "Why?"

Her reply was that she feared I couldsomehow lose my benefits if our government became annoyed with what I have to say about them.

My lady and I are Soulmates, and for the first time in eight blissful years, I yelled at her.

" I have the RIGHT of free speech and if the government wants to attempt to take it away, there's going to be hell to pay!"

In essence, that fundamental right was already stolen from me by my wish to not cause her anymore fear and worry.

Living in near poverty conditions for over a year can do that to you.

The current war being fought today is not the war to free the Iraqi people. It's not the war against Terrorism either. Nor is it the war on drugs.

It's the war declared on our very freedoms by an unseen army of greedy people who are hiding in the very government that is claiming to be protecting our freedom. They are wielding the most dangerous weapon you can imagine..."FEAR"

May 12, 2004

quote:

It's the war declared on our very freedoms by an unseen army of greedy people who are hiding in the very government that is claiming to be protecting our freedom. They are wielding the most dangerous weapon you can imagine..."FEAR"

The subversion of America isn't a new phenomenon.

Where have you been?

It still doesn't negate the fact that there are still people out there that will execute you, simply because your are American.

Should we fight or should we die?

(Because America DID NOT START THIS WAR!)

That is the question.

I would submit this question to all you anti-war types:

What would you be saying now, if Bush had done nothing following Sept. 11th?

street228 · May 12, 2004

quote:

t still doesn't negate the fact that there are still people out there that will execute you, simply because your are American.

Have you bothered to stop, and ask yourself...........WHY?

street228 · May 12, 2004

quote:

Her reply was that she feared I couldsomehow lose my benefits if our government became annoyed with what I have to say about them

First I agree so much with what I read in your post, I am speechless. Second, I can relate with the emotions you experianced when you first heard that speach (I had almost an identical reaction)

And finally, I understand your response to your wife, Mine would probably be just as emotional.

BUT, it is ALMOST there. Bush did try to alienate any who disagreed with him and depict them, as TERRORIST, or at the very least "UNPATRIOTIC FOOLS".

When he came on Television and started SLAMMING the character of those AMERICANS who said NO to war, and insinuated they were somehow unpatriotic and held sentiment in favor of TERRORISM, I about fell to the floor..It took about 30 minutes for it to really sink in... what he really was saying. Then I became so angry, I could spit nails.

These Patriot Acts, have put us in a position, where WE MUST FEAR what we say!!! We could very easily be deemed a terrorist, and get NO legal representation.

I was so peeved, I considered yanking up roots and moving to some remote 3rd world country for several months...Then I decided, it would be more appropriate, for me to stay, and run off the ones who are truly unpatriotic to what MY AMERICA STANDS FOR, or die trying.

May 12, 2004

quote:

Have you bothered to stop, and ask yourself...........WHY?

It's obvious. Because of the NSA, the CIA, the DEA and the ATF.

So what?

Until Mankind evolves into a higher state of consciousness, someone must hold the sword!

That means a whole lot of covert ops and immoral actions to subvert the enemy. Because in the really real world, it's kill or be killed.

You need to decide if you're with the side that gives you the basic "right" to choose, or are you with the side that crushes all dissention in an iron fist.

Seems simple enough to me.

street228 · May 12, 2004

quote:

Until Mankind evolves into a higher state of consciousness, someone must hold the sword!

That means a whole lot of covert ops and immoral actions to subvert the enemy. Because in the really real world, it's kill or be killed.

You need to decide if you're with the side that gives you the basic "right" to choose, or are you with the side that crushes all dissention in an iron fist.

Man evolve to a higher conciousness??? Maybe when he dies...not before. We are the same creature with the same intellectual capabilities, we have had since NOAH. OUR toys, and understanding of physics may be greater, but our intellect has remained constant.

The REAL WORLD, its kill or be killed?....no, I assure you, that is the GAME world.

The real world can be whatever you choose it to be. If one enviroment is to your distaste,You have the option to change the enviroment around you, or move. Entirely up to you. TREATING others in your world, with the same methodology, you wish to be treated...goes a long long way. (this is true personally and internationally)

I see some who claim to give a right to choose, which crush all dessintion with an iron fist...Bush,is but one.

The fact is, it aint over till its over. WE,the American people, CAN yet bring change for the better. It is NOT too late.

to choose, the apparant winning side, is the actions of those, who are already defeated.

My AMERICA. MY FREEDOM and EVERY Principle on which it was founded, will NEVER be defeated.

People will always rise up and take a stand...even through the ashes of apparant defeat!!

May 12, 2004

quote:

Man evolve to a higher conciousness??? Maybe when he dies...not before. We are the same creature with the same intellectual capabilities, we have had since NOAH. OUR toys, and understanding of physics may be greater, but our intellect has remained constant.

If this is truely how you think, then you have my pity.

"Intellect is to Reasoning, as Consciousness is to Understanding." Emmanual Swedenborg

quote:

The REAL WORLD, its kill or be killed?....no, I assure you, that is the GAME world.

(see above)

quote:

The real world can be whatever you choose it to be. If one enviroment is to your distaste,You have the option to change the enviroment around you, or move. Entirely up to you. TREATING others in your world, with the same methodology, you wish to be treated...goes a long long way. (this is true personally and internationally)

This from someone who just said that Man cannot evolve his consciousness.

Make up your mind.

[ 05-12-2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Shingen ]

street228 · May 12, 2004

quote:

This from someone who just said that Man cannot evolve his consciousness.

Make up your mind.

LOL!! I will NOT debate esseonic teachings. I have studied enough ANCIENT history to know...MANKIND, does not change in intellect or conciousness...only the individual has that luxury.

May 12, 2004

quote:

LOL!! I will NOT debate esseonic teachings. I have studied enough ANCIENT history to know...MANKIND, does not change in intellect or conciousness...only the individual has that luxury.

Individuals, taken together, are mankind.

Mankind is not an entity of and by itself.

Obviously, we comprehend things differently.

street228 · May 12, 2004

if MANKIND is not an entity of and by itself, then neither is government....and we are, EVERY ONE OF US, responsible for the DEATHS of every innocent in this IRAQI conflict; thus, we need be, individually, a whole lot MORE careful when pushed to condone such an event. Personally, I want no more blood on my hands, than that which is absolutly necessary.

Yes, I think we do comprehend things differently, shin, but it doesnt mean, we must be enemies.

Those who are not for us, are against us...is the most blatant lie of all. there are more than TWO sides to EVERY story!!

May 12, 2004

quote:

Those who are not for us, are against us...is the most blatant lie of all. there are more than TWO sides to EVERY story!!

True, but in War, there can be only one victor.

street228 · May 12, 2004

I agree in your overall assessment, shen. it is true there can only be one victor..

but I do not know of ANY war, where anyone involved actually WON. if you know what I mean.

We won..by beating germany in ww2, but only in that we eliminated a tremendous threat to our way of life at that time...but in reality we all lost.

now I am pretty exhausted, and really dont want to get into a big debate where everyone says I am now a NAZI, but.............consider this....

IF......Germany HAD WON!.........it is now 60 years later.....Almost EVERY individual who was witness to the war is dead.......!

Is the TOTAL world condition really so much worse for the inhabitants of the planet, than the present population?

I will give you, that many people and cultures would have been iradicated,or drasticly changed, and the whole perspective of the surviving populations would be different, they would have adjusted, just as today,s germany adjusted througout its post war division.(does it makes you think as to, why they waited so long to drop the berlin wall?)

So, would GERMANY still have WON anything after close to a century or so? I submit to you, that basicly NO, they did not WIN anything. Just as WE today did not win anything from our victory.

sure we saved "A" way of life, which is still present today. And if They had won, they would have preserved "A" way of life, which would have been present today.

In either scenerio..all wins and losses are are null and void. Mankind adjust, and finds a way of life regardless of political affiliations, and ideals.

My point is: NO ONE WINS. The atrocity of war outweighs any victory.

I am not saying there is nothing worth fighting for, but just presenting an overall concept, of winning and loosing.

I would die fighting, to preserve my freedom, but if it be won or lost, would be irrelevant to the surviving population a century down the road. They may choose to change their sociological views without war, and my death be in vain,,,but it wouldnt matter.

EVERYONE remotely attached to WAR looses......in my humble opinion.

BladeMasterX · May 12, 2004

what are some of you thinking? You hippy liberals! Of course it is a good thing that our country is in Iraq. People are pissing and moaning saying things like "oh my god 700 some people are dead oh my god, Lets bash Bush some more!" idiots. War is a necessary thing in some cases. Iraq was one of them, If any country is harboring WMD's, and they do not fully comply with U.N. weapon inspectors, something is definatly up. Sure what happend was they just told the weapons inspectors where to go and made sure those areas are clear. Where Iraqs WMDS are now is in Syria. Also Iraq has never had a free election before, just ruling by brutal dictators like Saddam Hussein who oppresses the people and tortures them. Sure i know about the Al Ghraib prison incident. Those responsible for it and those who knew about it and did nothing SHOULD be punished, but it is nothing to what Saddam inflicted upon the citizens of Iraq. Besides what may have been done in that little incident was nothing compared to Al Quaida's reprisal to it by the beheading of a U.S. citizen they kidnapped.

Avenger2099 · May 12, 2004

Aye, quite nasty with the whole sawing off a head but you do have to wonder what all happened in abu ghraib considering at least half of the more graphic pictures haven't been realesed yet but what al quaida did in vengence was still wrong. It just shows that to know thine enemy is one of the most important doctrines ever in a war. If those soldiers had known about how vengful most muslims are they might not have done what they did but they might have oh well. Good post Sam.

BladeMasterX · May 12, 2004

There was no way of knowing, and what those soldiers did is wrong, they should be punished, the past is the past, we should punish those soldiers and all get on with our lives, nothing we say now can change what happend in there, We need not see pictures to know that what went on is wrong.

May 12, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by street:

I agree in your overall assessment, shen. it is true there can only be one victor..